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Topic: Midi Channels (Read 12188 times) previous topic - next topic

Midi Channels

When creating a large scale orchestral score, should strings be placed all in the same channel? Whenever I do that, I get a sound on playback that isn't very string sounding. It's very nasal sounding. I guess what I really want to know is which instruments should be put into the same channel and which shouldnt so that they sound right when they're played back.

Re: Midi Channels

Reply #1 –
If the strings play in unison you will hear "flanging" a clash of frequencies when they play the same note.
Changing channels won't help.
Better to have only one instrument on one channel play the unison line and add some Chorus to the voice using controller 93. Or use the "Sting Section" patch.

Re: Midi Channels

Reply #2 –
You should not put all strings on one channel. You may be able to get away with 1st and 2nd vilolinson one channel but there will be problems with this even.

Every instruction that applies to the channel will be given to every staff that uses that channel.

Try this experiment.

New file - set up a staff to play a piano line - say note, rest, note , rest
Set up a second staff to play trumpet - rest, note , rest, note
Set both staves to channel 1

Go to the first staff and press shift f5 (play current staff)
You will hear the piano
Go to the second staff and press shift f5
You will hear the trumpet
Press f5 to play everything . What do you hear - just the trumpet.
This is because the instuction for instrument trumpet comes after the instruction for instrument piano and so both channel one staves take on instrument trumpet.

This is why you shouldn't have differing instruments on one channel.

Even with 1st and 2nd violins on one channel, you will get problems with dynamics and so on.






Rich.

Re: Midi Channels

Reply #3 –
Thank for clearing that up. But.. how would i then set up a score for a large orchestral score using more than 16 staves without having problems with midi playback?

Re: Midi Channels

Reply #4 –
What soundcard are you using?

Re: Midi Channels

Reply #5 –
Microsoft Midi Mapper? possibly... ive never done anything with my sound card. ive just used the one that came with my computer.. i guess.

Re: Midi Channels

Reply #6 –
If you use Windows, go to Control Panel to check your hardward configuration.  That should tell you what sound card you have.  I don't know how to find out on Mac.

Re: Midi Channels

Reply #7 –
Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth. Does that help?

Re: Midi Channels

Reply #8 –
Quote
Microsoft GS Wavetable SW Synth. Does that help?

If you want to use more than 16 channels you will need a soundcard that supports more than two ports.
The Creative Live and Audigy can do that - they have two wavetable synths A and B into which you can load soundfonts and address 16 channels on each synth.

Re: Midi Channels

Reply #9 –
I am grateful for this discussion over the past couple of weeks.  For years I've known I had those two "midi synths" and never knew why.  Thanks, Barry.

Re: Midi Channels

Reply #10 –
How would I go about getting one of those sounds cares that supports more than 16 channels?

Re: Midi Channels

Reply #11 –
If you have a desktop computer and already have a sound card, just go down to the nearest computer store and buy one.  They aren't expensive, and they're pretty easy to install.  Just take out the one you've got, and put the new one in. 

If you don't already have a soundcard, then you might have to disable the sound chip on your motherboard before installing the new soundcard.  Talk to someone who knows what they're doing to get that done.  It's probably not hard, but I'm only guessing.  Or take the computer to the store.  They'd probably instal the new card right away at no extra cost to you.  They'd disable the sound chip while they're at it.

A laptop might be a bit fussier, I don't know.

Re: Midi Channels

Reply #12 –
Quote from: shigglebiddy11 –
When creating a large scale orchestral score, should strings be placed all in the same channel? Whenever I do that, I get a sound on playback that isn't very string sounding. It's very nasal sounding. I guess what I really want to know is which instruments should be put into the same channel and which shouldnt so that they sound right when they're played back.
Here's what I do.
Channel 1 - piccolos and flute
2. Oboes (also Cor Anglais if needed)
3 Clarinets (plus bass if needed)
4 Bassoons (plus bass if needed)
5 Horns 1 & 2 (for 3 & 4 see tuba)
6 Trumpets
7 Tenor and bass trombones
8 Tuba and 3rd & 4th Horns
9 Timpani
10 All percussion
11 1st Violins (using string ensemble)
12 2nd Violins (using tremolo strings)
13 Violas
14 Cello
15 D. Bass
There is a spare channel for whatever extras you may have. Check out one of my large files on the Scripto or in the sample file of NWC2.


Re: Midi Channels

Reply #13 –
I'm usually scoring for musical theatre, which uses a lot of woodwind colours, and a fairly uniform string sound.  Here's what I do when I'm using NWC for sound (rather than printed parts):
1   Usually spare.  (When I send a patch-change to my synth, it alters the "common" effects.  In the middle of a piece, this can be quite drastic.  I have work-arounds, but they apply to my synth only, so I won't bother here.)  If I really need it, piccolo.
2   Flute (and piccolo, using a flute patch up an octave).
3   Oboe or English Horn (you never get both together).  Also often Alto Sax.
4   Clarinets
5   Bass Clarinet (I have a distinct bass clarinet patch and it really sounds better).  Also Tenor often Sax.
6   Bassoon.  Also often Bari Sax.
7   Horns (and tuba using a horn patch, for the infrequent times they appear).
8   Trumpets or muted trumpets (they never appear together)
9   Trombone (or muted)
10   un-tuned Percussion
11   Kettle Drums or Mallet Percussion
12   Piano
13   Harp
14   Strings 1 (arco, tremolo or pizz.)  Usually "High" strings.
15   Strings 2 (arco, tremolo or pizz.)  Usually "Low" strings.
16   Bass (contrabass for arco, acoustic bass for pizz.)

Like Tina, my channels appear pretty much in score order.  I try for this, no matter what the instrumentation.  If I really need five discrete string patches, they get 11 to 16, and "tuned percussion and miscellaneous" goe to 9, 8, ...

For Saxen, I use whichever woodwind channels are currently doing nothing.  I also "borrow" for obscure instruments - accordion, a 2nd mallet, organ, solo violin etc.  I agree with Tina that the horn patch usually gives a better Tuba sound (I think it's even better than the tuba patch!).

If I'm using NWC for printed parts, the woodwinds change to:
2   Book 1 (which might be piccolo, flute 1, alto sax 1)
3   Book 2 (which might be clarinet 1, flute 2, alto sax 2)
4   Book 3 (which might be clarinet 2, flute 3, tenor sax 1)
5   Book 4 (which might be oboe, English horn, clarinet 3, tenor sax 2)
6   Book 5 (which might be bassoon, bass clarinet, bari sax)
using patch changes ([glow=gray,1,300]now with transposition[/glow] in NWC2) when players swap instruments.  For strings, I still use 14 & 15 as the paper doesn't care about the sound.  If I have to use the file both for parts and sound, I'll mute notes where they overlap to prevent phasing.

Re: Midi Channels

Reply #14 –
One very effective way to prevent flanging and phase cancellation, as well as give your arrangement a richer sound and relieve ear fatigue is to stereo pan different parts left and right to simulate the physical placement on the stage of the players in an ensemble.  For each staff, F2 to the MIDI tab.  In MIDI the pan values are: 64-center, 0-pan full left, 127-pan full right.  For example, a combo might be panned: bass-30, piano-40, drums-55, guitar 1-75, guitar 2-90.  For solo piano, pan the right hand staff 80 and left hand staff 50.  Pan your string and wind parts according to the physical placement on the stage and hear your phasing and flanging problems vanish as well as increase the clarity and transparency of your entire arrangement.

Re: Midi Channels

Reply #15 –
Drums should be left in the centre of the pan.
They are a stereo instrument.
Move them out of the centre and you lose the stereo effect.

Re: Midi Channels

Reply #16 –
Quote from: Barry Graham –
Drums should be left in the centre of the pan.
They are a stereo instrument.
Move them out of the centre and you lose the stereo effect.
Whether I use F2 Midi tab Stereo Pan:
or MPCs, I cannot change anything on channel 10.
What's left is left, right is right, and center is centre.

Quote from: Milton –
One very effective way to ... give your arrangement a richer sound ... is to stereo pan different parts left and right to simulate the physical placement on the stage of the players in an ensemble. 
I have a number of old compositions and arrangements in which I employed this technique.  The left and right instruments turned out much quieter than the centre, so I had to boost the dynamic levels.  Since I've been using a newer computer [glow=beige,2,300][which is now over 5 years old, haha][/glow], the effects are reversed - the left and right instruments are now much louder than the center, so I have to cut the dynamic levels. 
I am curious as to which situation exists on most computers.

Re: Midi Channels

Reply #17 –
Quote from: K.A.T. –
I am curious as to which situation exists on most computers.
If you would provide a small test file (possibly in a new thread), you might get a consistent answer
Registered user since 1996

Re: Midi Channels

Reply #18 –
K.A.T., check to see if you panned the "quieter" instruments full left or right.  That would put them almost offstage in the ear's perception and so would make them too quiet.  A more realistic pan setting would be 1/10 to 1/4 left or right, pan values of about 30-55 for left and 75-100 for right.  Barry, I never noticed MIDI Ch 10 insts being panned when pan is center 64.  I'll play back the DRUMREF.nwc file to hear that effect, I must not have paid attention before.  But even if that's true, wouldn't panning Ch 10 simply shift all its instruments left or right while leaving the same relative pan between them?  Another experiment to try!

Re: Midi Channels

Reply #19 –
Barry, I played the xg_drum.nwc file created by Fred Nachbaur, using Shift-F5 to get only the top staff.  Using the Yamaha S-YXG 50 softsynth I could hear that the different MIDI Ch 10 instruments are indeed panned varying degrees left, right and center.  I then used F2-MIDI-Pan to set the stereo pan different degrees left and right.  The whole "drum set" did seem to shift left or right with the pan setting, though it was a subtle rather than a pronounced effect, and the relative pan between Ch 10 instruments seemed to have been preserved.  Neat!!