Nested triplets - a challenge?

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Nested triplets - a challenge?

2006-08-04 07:21 pm

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #1 – 2006-08-04 08:17 pm

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #2 – 2006-08-04 09:20 pm

Thanks, Rich. Your extra note spacing on the last note in the top staff did the trick. I'm going to use it.

Pity I can't do it without layered staffs. This comes in on once only, so far as I can see, at the 152nd bar of the piece. It's for four transposing instruments but since I'm writing the score in concert pitch, I'll have to remember to transpose the extra staffs too.

I've never encountered the figure before, but it's in the two transcriptions and original manuscript of Ellington's "Harlem" that I have in front of me.

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #3 – 2006-08-04 09:45 pm

Or this:

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:4th,Triplet=First|Pos:3
|Note|Dur:4th,Triplet|Pos:b3
|Rest|Dur:4th,Triplet|Opts:Stem=Up|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet|Pos:b2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=End|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

and fudge the meter and tempo

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #4 – 2006-08-04 10:19 pm

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #5 – 2006-08-04 11:19 pm

G'day folks,
as I haven't seen the original score I can only say what I think is easiest to read, and that's Rich's version.

Carl, sorry to disagree but I think that making the rests visible would only complicate things if I was trying to sight read it.

My $0.02 AUS

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #6 – 2006-08-05 07:54 am

Thanks, everyone. I'm going with Rich's suggestion.

Rick's method works mathematically but seeing only 5 notes tripletized will confuse the reader. They're all sax players, so are easily confused (I can say that because I play sax, sort of).

Carl, your suggestion almost works, but the big triplet bracket ends in the middle of the nested 8th note triplet. That visible rest is going to throw the reed players off too - we're not used to reading chords particularly where a rest is part of the chord. Panic wil set in. At m.m. of 1/4 = 160. (However, in real life, I imagine we'll just play the darned 8th triplet notes just fine after the initial sightreading - I can hear it in my head as I write this).

Lawrie, the original handwritten manuscript has the figure in Ellington's handwriting with no visible rests, so I agree with you. The frustrating thing is that while Finale produces the nested triplet figure, I couldn't figure out how to write it well in NWC2.

I really appreciate the help. 157 bars edited so far, thanks to all of you for your help with this one, and 175 bars to go. Times 16 instruments.

I'm using Lawrie's fonts - very handy, particularly for the 2-measure repeat symbol and the chord symbols.

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #7 – 2006-08-05 08:22 am

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #8 – 2006-08-05 09:27 am

Quote from: Carl Bangs – 2006-08-05 08:22 am

This is even clearer. As long as the musicians know that the eighth note triplets start on beat 4, all will be fine.

Clearer perhaps, but wrong. The eighth note triplets don't start on beat 4. They start after beat 4. Since they are triplets within triplets, they consume less than 1 beat. This is not possible to do precisely at any speed, but some attempt should be made; otherwise, one might as well write:

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Rest|Dur:4th,Triplet=First
|Note|Dur:4th,Triplet|Pos:-4
|Note|Dur:4th,Triplet=End|Pos:-3
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:b3|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=First|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet|Pos:b2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=End|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Quote from: David Palmquist – 2006-08-04 09:20 pm

Pity I can't do it without layered staffs.

You can. just use my method and center a text italic 3 on the center note of the eight triplet.

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #9 – 2006-08-05 04:44 pm

Since Lawrie mentioned not having seen the chart, I'm attaching two images. The first is the way Ellington wrote the figure, and the second is the way Finale reproduces it.

Thanks once again everybody. Fascinating little problem, isn't it?

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #10 – 2006-08-05 04:58 pm

I think I would need the Rosetta Stone to decipher that scribble. Forget about playing it in real time!

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #11 – 2006-08-05 05:54 pm

Quote

I think I would need the Rosetta Stone to decipher that scribble.

Yes. I guess that's why Ellington used copyists!!

The figure actually should play easily, the problem is notating it digitally when NWC won't nest triplets. I do wonder how Ellington's brain figured out the original notation, though. Seems awfully precise for jazz.

Harlem is a concerto grosso for Ellington's band and a symphony orchestra. In Music is My Mistress, Ellington said that it was commissioned the NBC Symphony Orchestra when Toscanini was its conductors, and that he wrote it while returning with his band from their 1950 European tour (74 concerts in 77 days) on the Ile de France. There is a tape recording circulating among collectors, though, of him playing it on piano at a private party in March 1949.

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #12 – 2006-08-05 06:15 pm

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #13 – 2006-08-05 06:54 pm

Interesting Ellington tidbit. I tried to work out the nested triplets on that one and I thought I had it for a moment, but it wasn't quite right. It certainly wouldn't have played back correctly. Frustrating! I'm going to see a 40's/50's era big band tonight at the beach. They're really quite good. I'll be listening for Ellington now. I'm not really too familiar with his style but I suppose it's time to expand my horizons a little.

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #14 – 2006-08-05 07:46 pm

Hi Fitzclan,
I'm glad to hear this. You'll probably hear something along the lines of Take the A Train, C Jam Blues, Satin Doll, Don't Get Around Much Anymore, It Don't Mean a Thing If It Ain't Got That Swing , Solitude, etc. if the band just does the standards.

With luck, you'll hear East St. Louis Toodle-Oo, Ko-ko, Main Stem, Jump for Joy, Such Sweet Thunder, Anitra's Dance, Åse's Death, Zweet Zurzday or various other gems and masterpieces for which charts have recently started to become available.

Thanks largely to Wynton Marsalis and Jazz@LincolnCenter's Essentially Ellington program, about 18,000 kids a year are starting to learn his music in North America and Australia. David Berger of New York has transcribed about 400 Ellington recordings over the years, and 50 or 60 of them are available through Essentially Ellington and Warner Bros.

As a young clarinet player, I idolized Benny Goodman. While I was aware of Ellington as a teenager through playing a concert band medley called Salute the Duke!, I had never heard anything else by him. I delivered newspapers on the same block as one of the clubs he appeared in in Vancouver, and recall seeing the posters, but I was too young to go in, even had I had thought of it. My passion for Ellington's music was ignited when I was driving home from work sometime in the early 1990s. CBC played the first recording of Daylight Express. The precision of the sax sectional and the exquisite beauty of Bubber Miley's trumpet solo blew my mind. I rushed out to buy the CD, and also got a recording of the Carrolltown dance of 1957. Now I had material from his early career and his mature period.

I lost interest in the swing bands, even Goodman - they just couldn't compare with Ellington's creativity, his harmonies, voicings and rhytyms.

I now have about 300 Ellington CDs, two discographies, a filmography, several biographies, some studies of the music of Ellington and Strayhorn, and a few other books. I went to the Ellington conferences in Hollywood and Stockholm, am active in an email Ellington discussion group, belong to the UK and New York Ellington societies, have my own Strictly Ellington repertory rehearsal band (for which I extracted about 50 sets of band parts from scores, using NWC), and created a comprehensive webpage of Ellington links (http://ellingtonweb.ca) to assist researchers.

So, I'm glad you'll be listening for his music. Hopefully you won't become addicted to Ellington, as I have (grin).

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #15 – 2006-08-05 07:50 pm

I've attached an image comparing the various suggestions for dealing with the nested triplets.

In case the image doesn't come out well, I've also attached the NWC2 file the image came from.

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #16 – 2006-08-05 09:20 pm

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #17 – 2006-08-05 10:15 pm

Well the pic doesn't really look like my version but the nwc file did - strange .

For the record - here is a jpg that I think will look like I want it to.

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #18 – 2006-08-05 10:19 pm

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #19 – 2006-08-05 10:22 pm

I think we better get off the computer before our wives find someone else to play with!

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #20 – 2006-08-05 11:21 pm

Assuming an initial Tempo of Q=80 and a reasonable Staff Italic font size, this would seem to satisfy the intent, both musically and visually. This, of course, will complicate the other staves.

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Bar
|Tempo|Base:Quarter Dotted|Tempo:80|Pos:6|Visibility:Never
|TimeSig|Signature:12/8|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:4th,Slur
|Text|Text:"3"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:10|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:-4
|Note|Dur:4th,Grace|Pos:-3^|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:4th,Grace|Pos:3^|Opts:Stem=Down,Muted|Visibility:Never
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:-3,3z|Opts:Stem=Up,StemLength=1
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:3
|Note|Dur:4th,Grace|Pos:b3^|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:b3
|Text|Text:"3"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:12|Justify:Right
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=First,Slur|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet,Slur|Pos:b2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=End|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Bar
|Tempo|Tempo:80|Text:"T°"|Pos:6|Visibility:Never
|TimeSig|Signature:Common|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:n0
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

BTW, how are you interpreting the 2nd measure of 2Ellingtons_nested_triplet.jpg ?
It seems to have too many beats.

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #21 – 2006-08-06 01:09 am

Rich, as you've probably already discovered, the misplaced note stem occurred because I stretched the bar with a forced line break, and forgot I had suggested reducing its stem length to zero.

I should have looked at the screen before printing to jpg. Sorry.

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #22 – 2006-08-06 01:28 am

Fitzclan, your sample misses the second big triplet.

For those who are interested in hearing it performed live by the Ellington band in 1951, it's the third two bar grouping in the clip here:

http://www.ellingtonweb.ca/Harlemtriplets/HarlemSectionL.mp3

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #23 – 2006-08-06 01:50 am

Quote

I think we better get off the computer before our wives find someone else to play with!

Something to while away the long summer evenings, eh?

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #24 – 2006-08-06 01:55 am

David,
I don't get your reply about missing the big triplet. It looks right to me from what you posted originally. First 3 quarter note triplet, then two quarter notes and one eighth triplet together and of course the eighth note triplet incorporated into the "big" triplet makes three, right?

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #25 – 2006-08-06 02:00 am

I just tried the clip and I see now what you mean. I have saved the file which looks right to me but doesn't come across on the clip somehow. Try this attachment.

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #26 – 2006-08-06 02:02 am

Rick, I wrote this twice already but IE crashed, so I may miss some parts of what I said the first times.

Nicely done. I thought about 12/8 time but couldn't do the arithmetic and never would have thought of those grace notes and the text. Very creative.

FWIW, the tempo is 160, not 80. If you change the voice to a sax, and performance style to legato, you'll notice what you wrote plays back very nicely.

Quote

... complicate the other staves.

Yes, but since it's only the saxes playing this in unison over a bass and drums in this bar, it's not a major concern visually. The bass part uses comping signs, so the hidden change of time signature and some hidden 8th rests fitted between the headless, muted, zero stem length quarter notes will work. The drum part is a repeat previous measure sign, so again it's visually not a problem. If I had to write it out or play it back, I'd probably pad it with some small hidden rests, but that's a problem for another day.

Quote

BTW, how are you interpreting the 2nd measure of 2Ellingtons_nested_triplet.jpg ?
It seems to have too many beats.

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #27 – 2006-08-06 02:30 am

Fitzclan, yes your newest example looks right.

Am I correctly assuming you're using the second staff primariy to control the arch on the slur?

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #28 – 2006-08-06 02:48 am

There are actually three staves. The 3rd one is for the slur. I forgot to mute the hidden staves, but the playback is much improved although not perfect if you do. I played with it a little more and it seems visually correct and closer to sounding like it should.

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #29 – 2006-08-06 03:04 am

OK. This is my last attempt (for tonight anyway). It looks right and I think it sounds pretty close too.

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #30 – 2006-08-06 03:35 am

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #31 – 2006-08-06 12:15 pm

By George, I think he's got it! That was rough. I was thinking though, someone asked recently if the midi could be imported from Finale. I suppose it would not come across as triplets anyway. Good luck with the rest of the score. By the way, very disapointing last night. They changed the band and they didn't do swing at all! Nothing like in years past! Oh well. It was a beautiful night at the beach anyway. And yeah, Fitz is fine.

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #32 – 2006-08-06 05:16 pm

Quote

very disapointing last night. They changed the band and they didn't do swing at all!

That's a drag. But there'll be other bands and other years.

Quote

someone asked recently if the midi could be imported from Finale. I suppose it would not come across as triplets anyway. Good luck with the rest of the score.

You're right. However, capturing music from Finale for NWC2 doesn't have to be with midi. I'm going from Finale to exported TIF files, processing them with Sharpeye and using MXML2NWC to bring them into NWC2 for editing. (Later versions of Finale apparently will export to XML, removing the need for Sharpeye.)

I've found the notes are usually right, except:
-many sharp accidentals have been marked as naturals - this could be a function of the size I chose in creating the tif images.
- lots of triplets are wrong, interpreting the first note at the wrong value and missing the last two notes altogether.
- slurs and ties are sometimes missed or don't cover all the notes in the grouping
- complicated figures like the nested triplets aren't recognized.

I'm not sure how much time I'm saving over manual entry, but at least I don't have to risk the normal input errors I normally make.

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #33 – 2006-08-06 05:21 pm

I am wondering now why my clip text failed. The triplet bracket on the "big" tr didn't show up for some reason. Anyway, if you can do it all in one program, you're much better off. Importing is always iffy.

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #34 – 2006-08-06 05:26 pm

Quote

I am wondering now why my clip text failed. The triplet bracket on the "big" tr didn't show up for some reason.

I figure the answer is 42, but my wife would say, "it's the way you hold your mouth."

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #35 – 2006-08-07 11:43 am

Hmmmm!!!!?

I'm just not gettin' it.

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #36 – 2006-08-07 11:53 am

I think that would be "The answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything", according to Douglas Adams...

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #37 – 2006-08-07 02:33 pm

Lawrie's right, Fitz. Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is an electronic guidebook to the Milky Way galaxy, originally published by Megadodo Publications, one of the great publishing houses of Ursa Minor Beta.

More info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hitchhiker's_Guide_to_the_Galaxy

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #38 – 2006-08-07 04:05 pm

With this much effort into workarounds, it probalbly looks better then Sibelius renders it. :->

Sibelius has the two tripletizer lines running parallel on the same line! It looks hideous!

:nwc)

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #39 – 2006-08-07 05:03 pm

I take it that's "[glow=red,2,300]Ya-a-y NWC[/glow]"?

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #40 – 2006-08-07 10:31 pm

HHG? Where have I been?

Re: Nested triplets - a challenge?

Reply #41 – 2014-03-20 11:49 am

Recent discussion:

Quote from: boblalux – 2014-03-18 09:30 pm

With Noteworthy, there is no problem in writing/making a triplet. But how can I make 4 semi-quavers to 1.5 crotchets

caused me to revisit this topic.

Without altering tempo, NoteWorthy can't play double tripletized 8th notes accurately. But to my ear, it doesn't matter. Play the attachment in the viewer. It plays three times. A different note takes up the extra tripletized 64th note that is needed to balance things out. Even at slow tempo, I can't hear any difference.

A few changes to NWC over the years has also improved the appearance of the notation. A few more could make it a lot simpler