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Topic: Seven repeating version with final section (Read 11834 times) previous topic - next topic

Seven repeating version with final section

Having problems getting this to work. I have a master close going back to the start, repeated 7 times, with then the final default (eighth time). There is a double bar line in the repeated section to indicate the verse start. Plays 7 verses fine. On final verse, it jumps from the special ending indication to the double bar in the repeated section and then terminates at the master section close. Have tried to get this to work with local repeat as well. Suggestions?

Re: Seven repeating version with final section

Reply #1
The Default ending technically only applies after a Flow Direction has been performed, but I was able to get 8 repeats, as shown in this clip:

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-2
|Bar
|Ending|Endings:1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-1
|Bar|Style:MasterRepeatClose
|Ending|Endings:2
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Bar|Style:MasterRepeatClose
|Ending|Endings:3
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:1
|Bar|Style:MasterRepeatClose
|Ending|Endings:4
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:2
|Bar|Style:MasterRepeatClose
|Ending|Endings:5
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:3
|Bar|Style:MasterRepeatClose
|Ending|Endings:6
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:2
|Bar|Style:MasterRepeatClose
|Ending|Endings:7
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:1
|Bar|Style:MasterRepeatClose
|Ending|Endings:D
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Bar|Style:Double
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:0|Pos:6
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Re: Seven repeating version with final section

Reply #2
Here is an example of the simpler situation that you seem to describe in your question:

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-2
|Bar
|Ending|Endings:1,2,3,4,5,6,7
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-1
|Bar|Style:MasterRepeatClose
|Ending|Endings:D
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Bar|Style:Double
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:0|Pos:6
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Re: Seven repeating version with final section

Reply #3
and for 9+ verses:

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:C
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-2
|Flow|Style:ToCoda|Pos:-15|Placement:AtNextNote|Visibility:Never
|Text|Text:"Verses"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:12|Placement:AtNextNote
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-1
|Bar|Style:LocalRepeatClose|Repeat:8|Visibility:Never
|Text|Text:" 1 - 8 "|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:12|Wide:Y|Justify:Right|Placement:AtNextNote
|Text|Text:"  Final Verse"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:12|Placement:AtNextNote
|Flow|Style:DCalCoda|Pos:-9|Justify:Right|Placement:AtNextNote|Visibility:Never
|Bar|Style:MasterRepeatClose
|Flow|Style:Coda|Pos:-13|Placement:AtNextNote|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Bar|Style:Double
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:0|Pos:6
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
Registered user since 1996

Re: Seven repeating version with final section

Reply #4
Many thanks for your help. I maybe didn't explain it accurately, so I've copied an example of the problem here. Hope it helps:

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-2
|Bar
|Ending|Endings:1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-1
|Bar|Style:MasterRepeatClose
|Ending|Endings:2
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Bar|Style:MasterRepeatClose
|Ending|Endings:3
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:1
|Bar|Style:MasterRepeatClose
|Ending|Endings:4
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:2
|Bar|Style:MasterRepeatClose
|Ending|Endings:5
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:3
|Bar|Style:MasterRepeatClose
|Ending|Endings:6
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:2
|Bar|Style:MasterRepeatClose
|Ending|Endings:7
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:1
|Bar|Style:MasterRepeatClose
|Ending|Endings:D
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Bar|Style:Double
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:0|Pos:6
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Re: Seven repeating version with final section

Reply #5
Your example of the problem appears to be my example from Reply 1, which works fine.

 

Re: Seven repeating version with final section

Reply #6
Don't know what happened there :-( - try this

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:F#
|TimeSig|Signature:4/4
|Tempo|Tempo:160|Pos:8
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-5
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-2
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Bar
|Bar
|Ending|Endings:1,2,3,4,5,6,7
|Chord|Dur:Half|Pos:-9,-2
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Bar|Style:Double
|Chord|Dur:Half,Dotted|Pos:-5|Opts:Stem=Down|Dur2:Half,Dotted|Pos2:-5
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Bar|Style:MasterRepeatClose
|Ending|Endings:D
|Chord|Dur:Whole|Pos:-9^,-2^
|Bar
|Chord|Dur:Half,Dotted|Pos:-9,-2
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:Whole
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Re: Seven repeating version with final section

Reply #7
The double bar line inside the special ending is causing your problem. You cannot have a double bar line within an ending. If you change it to a single bar line, your problem is solved:

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:F#
|TimeSig|Signature:4/4
|Tempo|Tempo:160|Pos:8
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-5
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-2
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Bar
|Bar
|Ending|Endings:1,2,3,4,5,6,7
|Chord|Dur:Half|Pos:-9,-2
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Bar
|Chord|Dur:Half,Dotted|Pos:-5|Opts:Stem=Down|Dur2:Half,Dotted|Pos2:-5
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Bar|Style:MasterRepeatClose
|Ending|Endings:D
|Chord|Dur:Whole|Pos:-9^,-2^
|Bar
|Chord|Dur:Half,Dotted|Pos:-9,-2
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:Whole
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Re: Seven repeating version with final section

Reply #8
Many thanks - knew it was probably something stupid I'd done!

Re: Seven repeating version with final section

Reply #9
Except that it's not stupid. There's absolutely no musical reason why you can't have a double bar there, and indeed, if you wanted a key change you'd have to have one (technically). A double bar has no flow significance or any apparent performance effect so I don't understand why this restriction should exist!

Re: Seven repeating version with final section

Reply #10
Hi Peter - just reread this and it reminded me of something...

While my Alfred's doesn't state it, in my youth I was taught that the final special ending of a repeated section was always terminated by a decorated barline, usually a double bar.

If this is the rule that Eric has applied then it makes perfect sense to me.

Perhaps others have other recollections or references that are clearer on the matter?

Lawrie
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Seven repeating version with final section

Reply #11
I agree with Peter, that there's no reason you couldn't have a double-bar line in a special ending, but I'd suggest there are good reasons that you shouldn't have one.

Double-bar lines are a signal to the player that something special is about to happen - usually a new key signature or the start of a new section.  If it's a new key then the section is probably worth writing out in full.  (We can ignore a courtesy key-change just before the repeat sign at the end.)  If it's a new section, then what's it doing in the middle of a special ending!  It would mean your "special ending" is really way too long, and might be written as DC/DS [al coda/fine], or written out in full.

I always find it's better to write out parts (and thus the score) to the players rarely have to turn backwards.  So little repeats are usually okay, and I get the occasional DC, but copy and paste make it easy for me to make the players' lives easy!

Cheers,
Ewan

Re: Seven repeating version with final section

Reply #12
But you can't just ignore a courtesy key change. This example doesn't play back correctly without it, and, unfortunately, makes a complete nonsense of playback with it.

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Key|Signature:F#,C#,G#
|TimeSig|Signature:3/4
|Bar|Style:MasterRepeatOpen
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:3
|Bar|Style:Double
|Key|Signature:C
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:3
|Bar
|Ending|Endings:1
|Note|Dur:Half,Dotted|Pos:1
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:0
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Bar|Style:Double
|Key|Signature:F#,C#,G#
|Bar|Style:MasterRepeatClose
|Ending|Endings:2
|Note|Dur:Half,Dotted|Pos:-1
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
And why in any case restrict the use of something quite unnecessarily?

The implemented behaviour of a double bar line in a repeat is not of the slightest musical use to anyone, so let's remove it and treat a double bar the same way as a single bar for flow purposes.

Re: Seven repeating version with final section

Reply #13
Hi Peter,
you are, of course, quite correct in the example you've given.

However there still needs to be some acceptable method of defining the conclusion of a final special ending in a repeated section.  As I said, I was taught that this was one of the double barlines functions.

Perhaps the answer is to determine which special ending the double bar is contained in... or maybe add an attribute to decorated barlines so that you can control behaviour in this instance.

Another possibility is to add an attribute to special endings to control observance of the double bar...

Lawrie
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Seven repeating version with final section

Reply #14
Oops, I've written unclearly!  Rather than "We can ignore a courtesy key-change just before the repeat sign at the end", I should have written "a courtesy key-change just before the repeat sign at the end should cause no problems, because it is usually written before the bar-line.

Yes, I know this is non-standard placement of a new key signature, but it's how I've most often seen it!

Theoretically, we should be able to live without it (except in one case)!  If the repeated section starts in a different key and [abbr=or "its" for those who prefer it]it's[/abbr] not the start of the piece, the key signature at the start should be on the right-hand side of the opening repeat bar.

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:F#,C#,G#,D#
|TimeSig|Signature:3/4
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-4
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-2
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Half,Dotted|Pos:n2
|Key|Signature:C|Visibility:Never
|Bar|Style:MasterRepeatOpen
|Key|Signature:F#,C#,G#
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:3
|Bar|Style:Double
|Key|Signature:C
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:3
|Bar
|Ending|Endings:1
|Note|Dur:Half,Dotted|Pos:1
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:0
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Bar|Style:MasterRepeatClose
|Ending|Endings:2
|Note|Dur:Half,Dotted|Pos:-1
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
(The exception occurs when the earlier music is in the same key - then there's less justification for putting the key signature again.)

If the repeated section starts at the beginning of the piece, the opening repeat is left out.

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:F#,C#,G#
|TimeSig|Signature:3/4
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:3
|Bar|Style:Double
|Key|Signature:C
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:3
|Bar
|Ending|Endings:1
|Note|Dur:Half,Dotted|Pos:1
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:0
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Bar|Style:MasterRepeatClose
|Ending|Endings:2
|Note|Dur:Half,Dotted|Pos:-1
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
But for the sake of the players, I'd always use a courtesy key signature, or better yet, use accidentals for temporary key-changes, or best of all, write the music out.

Not withstanding all of that, I have seen music with a [abbr=can't remember the American for this, sorry]first-time bar[/abbr] bit that was so long that it genuinely had new sections that needed double-bar lines.  I fairly sure it was merely to save paper.

Re: Seven repeating version with final section

Reply #15
Re: https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=5172.msg33062#msg33062
If you like the double bar, you can do this:
Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:F#
|TimeSig|Signature:4/4
|Tempo|Tempo:160|Pos:8
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-5
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-2
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Bar
|Bar
|Ending|Endings:1,2,3,4,5,6,7
|Chord|Dur:Half|Pos:-9,-2
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Bar|Style:Double
|Ending|Endings:1,2,3,4,5,6,7|Visibility:Never
|Chord|Dur:Half,Dotted|Pos:-5|Opts:Stem=Down|Dur2:Half,Dotted|Pos2:-5
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Bar|Style:MasterRepeatClose
|Ending|Endings:D
|Chord|Dur:Whole|Pos:-9^,-2^
|Bar
|Chord|Dur:Half,Dotted|Pos:-9,-2
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:Whole
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=5172.msg33435#msg33435 can use this:
Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Key|Signature:F#,C#,G#
|TimeSig|Signature:3/4
|Bar|Style:MasterRepeatOpen
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:3
|Bar|Style:Double
|Key|Signature:C
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:3
|Bar
|Ending|Endings:1
|Note|Dur:Half,Dotted|Pos:1
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:0
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Bar|Style:Double
|Ending|Endings:1|Visibility:Never
|Key|Signature:F#,C#,G#
|Bar|Style:MasterRepeatClose
|Ending|Endings:2
|Note|Dur:Half,Dotted|Pos:-1
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
The rule seems to be that if you want a decorated bar line in a special ending, copy the special ending immediately after the decorated bar line and make it invisible.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Seven repeating version with final section

Reply #16
G'day Rick,
that's neat mate, works nicely.

Lawrie
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.