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instrument patches

Having added various patches - several often on one stave - only the patch numbers are shown and it is not easy to keep track.
Is there a list available of the instrument types and their patch numbers ?

Re: instrument patches

Reply #1 –
If you are using NWC2, you get a complete list when you press the Predefined Instruments... button.

You should be seeing the "Name" whatever you type in the field on the staff.

It sounds like you are using NWC1 if you are getting just a patch number (but you are posting in the NWC2 forum, so it's confusing.)

Either way, just follow this procedure:
1) Clicking on the staff
2) Press F2
3) Click on the Tab marked Instrument
4)
NWC1 -- There should be a Patch Name list
Alter the view using the drop down menu for Patch List Type
NWC2 -- Information as stated above.

If you are using NWC1, what I used to do was place the Patch Number above the staff and then near it include a Text message as to what the name actually is.

You might see something like this:

Timpani #048
________________________________

Re: instrument patches

Reply #2 –
Just for speed and ease, the quick key for Instrument patch is <i> in both NWC 1&2. F2 can add an unecessary step.

Re: instrument patches

Reply #3 –
Yes, but note that "I" inserts an instrument patch at the current staff position. If you want to change the entire staff, you need to use MIDI Man's method.

Re: instrument patches

Reply #4 –
Actually, DGF is correct. Make the following change:

2) Press 'i'

Based on the original message "several often on one stave", that would imply that the Instrument patches are inserted where F2 is only for the overall staff itself.

Thanks DGF for the correction. I should have paid more attention.

NOTE: I also prefer Expression Placement at Staff Position 7

Re: instrument patches

Reply #5 –
Thanks MIDI Man and everyone else for your help.
Yes I am using NWC1 - sorry for the confusion.

snooker

Re: instrument patches

Reply #6 –
I have aired this before, but when I press the Predefined Instruments. having selected, say jeux 42 with the Change List  button nothing shows up, even though all the instruments ot voices are listed in the NTW Patch Configurations folder

Re: instrument patches

Reply #7 –
>> > having selected, say jeux 42 with the Change List button

You'll have to do a better job explaining "jeux 42"

>> > listed in the NTW Patch Configurations folder

We tend to abbrev. using NWC (not NTW). However, I'm assuming you mean the "itrees" folder?

Re: instrument patches

Reply #8 –
Hi Tony,
at the risk of sounding silly, you _are_ talking about NWC2 aren't you?  I mean, NWC1 doesn't have a "Predefined Instruments" or "Change List" button but NWC2 doesn't use NTWPATCH.INI.  (I assume you mean this file when you refer to "NTW Patch Configurations folder")

Instead you need to have a correctly defined "*.nwcitree" file which is normally stored in the "C:\Program Files\Noteworthy Composer 2\itrees" folder.

When you select say "jeux 42" from the change list button there must be a file called "jeux 42.nwcitree" or it wouldn't be available to select.  Is _this_ file correctly configured?  I do have a jeux.nwcitree file that works, but I forget where I got it from.  It has Andrew Purdam's name in it so I guess he posted it somewhere... perhaps the Scripto...  (3 minute wait)  Nope, couldn't find it there.  Anyone remember where it is?

If not, and if you visit the NG at all, let me know and I'll upload there for you if you like.  (Of course, you'll need to have the Jeux soundfont installed in bank 42 of your sound card too.  Actually, this itree also defines Jeux Romantiques in bank 43 but I don't have this loaded.)

While I've never used a modified NTWPATCH.INI under NWC1 I believe the file format is different for NWC2 so simply renaming a jeux42 version of NTWPATCH.INI is not sufficient...

Hope I'm not trying to teach Grandma how to suck eggs here...

Lawrie

Re: instrument patches

Reply #9 –
Lawrie,

It is NWC2
I do  have an NWT patch file on my NWC2 with configuration settings and I probably copied it over from NWC I must delete it
But I also have an Itrees folder which contains NWCITREE files for Classic., General Midi, Default, English organ AWE20,  and Jeux 42/43
Each of these files has a list for several different groupings of up to 127 voices – or orgabn stoops – with an suffixed number after the title of the voice, for example
Jeux bank 42
Doublette 2 = 2

Now, I am getting there – when I now go to ‘change list’ and select juex 42 or 43,  I do get the predefined instruments properly listed ( but I could not do this before you minuted – magic! )  however trying to select English organ results in “invalid instrument tree”

I must now try to find out how that list differs from those which work. It looks exactly the same format as the others.

Tony

Re: instrument patches

Reply #10 –
Lawrie,

it is now all working. I think that I may have had a problem with conflict between the name of the English Organ font differing between the various places where it comes up, including the Soundblaster program, the itree file and elsewhere.

Thank you for assistance and magic spell.

Tony

Re: instrument patches

Reply #11 –
G'day Tony,
dunno 'bout magic spell but I have been known to fix computers just by threatenin' to look at 'em - can't explain it, maybe they're frightened of me :)

Anyhow, glad it's working for you...

Lawrie

Re: instrument patches

Reply #12 –
Having solved my original problem, I now have another.

In the Instrument  patch dialogues box, and in the Predefined Instruments box I go to Change List and select, say, jeux 1.4
I then have a drop down menu of the organ stops available, the equivalent of the Intruments in the General Midi patch.
I select, say Montre 8'. and in the predefined instrument window Montre 8' appears.
Click OK and Montre 8' now appears at the start of the score.
But when I go to "play" I hear the basic default piano sound.
This happens whatever alternative sound font I choose and whatever instrument in that sound font
Under tools/options I have SBLive! synth A as the playback device and this is where the alternative sound fonts are stored, all apparently correctly in the appropriate bank numbers

This is driving me bonkers!

Tony

Re: instrument patches

Reply #13 –
Hi Tony,
can I get you to check your jeux 1.4 itree?

After any comments that may be there (lines prefixed by #) you will have a couple of lines that look something like this:

\Jeux=Bank(42,0)
Montre 8=0
Prestant 4=1

The first line defines the instrument tree's name: \Jeux
Then the bank it is accessed by: =Bank(42,0)

This example is assuming that your jeux soundfont is installed in bank 42 (MSB of bank select) of your soundcard.  My guess is that your itree file has Bank(0,0) which will likely be the bank for your normal soundfont.  This would be OK if your normal soundfont was jeux but I'm betting it isn't.

To summarise, normal convention is to have the jeux organ soundfont loaded in bank 42.  Thus the itree needs to have this defined in the Bank statement [=Bank(42,0)].

Hmm, you also need to have jeux actually loaded in bank 42...

Hope I'm on the right track,
Lawrie
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: instrument patches

Reply #14 –
My itrees did not have the  ,0 after the bank number but otherwise were as they should be. Preliminary investigatiion shows that the alteration  has not changed anything, but for various reasons, it will now have to wait for a few days!
Tony

Re: instrument patches

Reply #15 –
Hi Tony,
just had a brainstorm... well, storm in a teacup maybe :)

In NWC2, under | Tools | Options | Midi tab, what "Devices used by play back" do you have?

I generally try to have only 1 device in this list at any time...

You need to make sure your sound card's synth is listed here rather than say Microsoft's Midi mapper etc.

Also, re-reading some of your posts I think there may be some misunderstanding... Simply selecting instruments from an itree does _not_ specifically select or install a sound font!

A sound font must be installed into your sound card's configuration _outside_ of NWC.  Then the itree must match the bank selection of where the desired sound font is installed.

As well, the correct synth must be selected for output within NWC2 (as mentioned above).  In my case, I have a SB Audigy 2.  This card has 2 synths that can be loaded with soundfonts independantly of each other.  I also have to be careful I have the correct synth selected to get the sound font I want to use.

Also note that you can have multiple sound fonts installed to the one synth, just make sure you select different banks for each font.  There are exceptions to this generality but I'm not going into them here.

Normally a GM sound font is installed to bank 0, jeux is a special case (NOT GM) that is by convention normally installed to bank 42.  There are other examples of similar conventions for particular sound fonts being installed to specific banks but I don't recall any details at the moment.

Hope this is more helpful.
Lawrie
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: instrument patches

Reply #16 –
Lawrie,
Lawrie,

The situation so far:-

In NWC/Tools/Options/Midi  I have the choice of Microsoft GS Wavetable Sw Synth, Microsoft Midi Mapper, and 4 SBLive! alternatives, ( Synth A, Synth B, SW Synth and MIDI Port)
SBLive! Synth A is selected as the playback device.

In Creatuve/SBLive/ AudioHQ/Soundfont  the first entry in the ‘Select bank’ box is Synth 2GMGSMT Rev N++  Subsequent numbers from 001  to 009  and bank 016 are “used by  bank 000”
Bank 020 is AWEOrgan2 .  If I now select ‘configure instrument ‘ for this bank, 020,  the ‘Select Instrument’ window shows the correct stops as listed in AWE Organ 2
In the same way, 042 displays the title Jeux  version 1.4 and 043 is “used by bank 042”
Configure instrument again shows the appropriate stops in each of the banks
There are other Soundfonts in some other primary banks.

If I now select Creative /  audioHQ/ Keyboard,  I have an image of a keyboard and a window in which I can select a bank. If I select 042 Jeux version 1.4,  the ‘Instrument‘  window shows the list of stops in Jeux 1.4  If I select, say, 125, Petit Carillon ( a distinctive sound)  and use the mouse to depress a key, the appropriate bell sound emerges.
This suggests to me that the sound fonts are properly loaded

In NWC2 itree folder, this is a part of the jeux42-43 NWCITREE file

# Copyright © 2004 by NoteWorthy Software, Inc.
# All Rights Reserved

#
# ------------------------------
#
\Jeux Bank =42,0
Montre   8=0
Prestant 4=1
Doublette 2=2
MontrePrestant 84=3
MontrePrestantDoublette 842=4
Principals (g.o.) 821=5
MontreDoublette 82=6
Principals (g.o.) 168=7
Principals (g.o.) 164=8
Principals (g.o.) 162=9
MontreFlute 84=10
Nazard 2 23=11
Tierce 1 35=12
Larigot 1 13=13
Neuvime 89=14
Bourdon 16=15
Spitzflte 8=16
Holzflte 4=17
Open Flute 4=18
Gamba 8=19
GambaFlute 84=20
******

When I open a song in NWC2  and click on I or F2 I have the Instrument dialog box in which I can go through Predefined Instrument/ Change List and find a list of all my soundfonts.  If I select, say, Jeux 42, I am shown the list of stops, not numbered,  but in the correct order. If I select, say, Petit Carillon, and OK it, this title  appears in the  ‘Name’  box. Clicking OK in the Notation properties box results in the name Petit Carillon appearing at the insertion point in the score.
If I now play the piece, it sounds as piano, not bells.
If I choose to use NWC, with its slightly different procedures, the results are the same.

Tony

Re: instrument patches

Reply #17 –
Lawrie,
A small afterthought.  I have tried varying slightly the headings in the itree file,
Jeux = bank 042,
jeux, bank = 042
Jeux bank = (42,0) etc
but none of these appears to haveany effect

Tony

Re: instrument patches

Reply #18 –
Hi Tony,
I think I _may_ have spotted it...

You have tried:
  • \Jeux Bank =42,0
  • Jeux = bank 042,
  • jeux, bank = 042
  • Jeux bank = (42,0)
  • etc.
did "etc." include:
\Jeux=Bank(42,0)

That is not in the list you gave, it is how mine is configured, and mine works.  Perhaps a copy and paste is advisable?

I'm not sure if spaces are significant, but mine has none...  Certainly the _order_ is significant.

This is my best guess, if that's not it then I'm out of ideas for the moment.

Lawrie

###### my entire Jeux.nwcitree follows ######

# Created by Andrew Purdam, and converted as an attachment to test the
# nwc2beta newsgroup's ability to receive nwcitree attachments.
#
# Comments from Adrew:
#
# Here is an instrument tree for the Jeux and JEUX Romantiques soundfont
# (normally banks 42 & 43). You will note that the itree predefines the
# soundbank information for you, which is pretty neat.
#
# HTH,
# A

\Jeux=Bank(42,0)
Montre 8=0
Prestant 4=1
Doublette 2=2
MontrePrestant 84=3
MontrePrestantDoublette 842=4
Principals (g.o.) 821=5
MontreDoublette 82=6
Principals (g.o.) 168=7
Principals (g.o.) 164=8
Principals (g.o.) 162=9
MontreFlute 84=10
Nazard 2 23=11
Tierce 1 35=12
Larigot 1 13=13
Neuvime 89=14
Bourdon 16=15
Spitzflte 8=16
Holzflte 4=17
Open Flute 4=18
Gamba1 8=19
GambaFlute 84=20
GambaViola 84=21
GambaPrestant 84=22
GambaDoublette 82=23
ViolaPrincipals (g.o.)2 482=24
Trompette 8=25
TrompettePrestantDoublette 842=26
Sesquialtera II=27
Terzian II=28
Septade III=29
Nonade IV=30
Nazard III=31
Septime VI=32
Fourniture III=33
Cymbale III=34
Mixture VI=35
Principal Chorus 16842=36
String Chorus=37
Fond dOrgue=38
Pienino=39
Ripieno I (g.o.)=40
Ripieno II (g.o.)=41
Plein Jeu (g.o.)=42
Grand Jeu=43
Tutti (g.o.)=44
Principal (pos.)3 8=45
Principal (pos.) 4=46
Principals (pos.) 84=47
Principals (pos.) 841=48
Principals (pos.) 82=49
Principals (pos.) 164=50
Gedackt 8=51
Gemshorn 8=52
Rohrflte 8=53
Rohrflte 4=54
Gemshorn 4=55
Blockflte 4=56
Sifflte 1=57
Gedackt 84=58
GemshornsMixture III 84=59
Flauti 821=60
GedacktLarigot 81 13=61
GedacktMixture VI 8=62
Flauti 42=63
Salicionale 8=64
Quintadena 8=65
Viola4 4=66
SalicionaleGamba 88=67
SalicionaleGedackt 88=68
QuintadenaViola 84=69
ViolaPrincipals (pos.)5 4164=70
Krummhorn6 8=71
Cromorne7 8=72
Cornemuse 8=73
Cor Anglais8 8=74
Schalmei9 8=75
Orlos10 8=76
Regal 8=77
Clairon 4=78
Clarines11 84=79
CromorneViola 84=80
Jeu de Cromorne IV12 8=81
KrommhornLarigot 81 13=82
Nazardos VIII13=83
Jeu de Tierce V14 8=84
Jeux Doux15=85
Jeu des Flutes=86
Ripieno I (pos.)=87
Ripieno II (pos.)=88
Plein Jeu (pos.)=89
Petit Jeu (pos.)=90
Jeu des Anches=91
Swell Chorus=92
Flute Celeste 8=93
Viola Celeste 4=94
Piffaro16 8=95
Vox Humana 8=96
Voix Humaine IV17 8=97
Grand Cornet V=98
Trompeta de Batalla18 8=99
Gros Cromorne19 8=100
Basse de Trompette20 16=101
Bombarde 16=102
Gobletflte21 2=103
Gobletflte 42=104
Echo Trompette 4=105
Goblet Nazard III 4=106
Echo Cornet V 8=107
Echo Flutes=108
Echo Chorus=109
Principal (ped.) 16=110
Sousbasse 16=111
Principals (ped.) 168=112
Principals (ped.) 164=113
Resultant22 32=114
Posaune 16=115
Fagotto23 8=116
PosaunePrestant 164=117
Posaune Pedal III 16=118
Quintade III (ped.) 16=119
Ripieno I (ped.)=120
Ripieno II (ped.)=121
Tutti (ped.)=122
Great Bells=123
Carillon=124
Petit Carillon=125
Zimbelstern24=126
Nachtigal25=127

#
# ------------------------------
#
\JEUX Romantiques=Bank(43,0)
Viola 8=0
Carnival Gedeckt 8=1
Carnival Trumpet 8=2
Viola Celeste 8=3
Terzizimbel=4
Flte Harmonique 8=5
Bourdon  Principal (ped.) 168=6
Romantic Chorus I (g.o.)=7
Romantic Chorus I (pos.)=8
Romantic Chorus II (rcit)=9
Principals (pos.) 1684=10
Principal Chorus (pos.) 16842=11
Decimanona 1 13=12
Vigesimaseconda 1=13
Vigesimasesta 23=14
Vigesimanona 12=15
Romantic Chorus II (g.o.)=16
Romantic Chorus II (pos.)=17
Romantic Chorus I (rcit)=18
Quint 2 23=19
Mixture III=20
Fonds (g.o.) 8=21
Fonds (g.o.) 84=22
Fonds (g.o.) 168=23
Fonds (g.o.) 1684=24
Fonds (g.o.) lite 1684=25
Fonds (pos.) 8=26
Fonds (pos.) 84=27
Fonds 168=28
Fonds 1684=29
Fonds (rcit) 8=30
Fonds (rcit) 84=31
Fonds (soft pos.) 8=32
Fonds (soft pos.) 84=33
Fonds (soft pos.) 168=34
Fonds (soft pos.) 1684=35
Reeds (g.o.) 8=36
Reeds (g.o.) 84=37
Reeds (g.o.) 168=38
Reeds (g.o.) 1684=39
Reeds (pos.) 8=40
Reeds (pos.) 84=41
Reeds (rcit) 8=42
Reeds (rcit) 84=43
Musette Reeds 8=44
Fonds de Gros Tierce V=45
Fonds (ped.) 1684=46
Reeds (ped.) 1684=47
Pedal Reeds  Bombarde 1684=48
Quart de Nazard 2=49
Beckerath Tutti=50
Divine Trumpet 8=51
Trompette en Chamade 8=52
Hautbois 8=53
Trompette du Rcit Romantique 8=54
Voix Cleste 8=55
Voix Humaine sans Tremblant 8=56
Pedal Reeds 168=57
Contra-Posaune 32=58
17th Century English Chorus=59
Bourdon 32=60
Stopped Diapason 16=61
Open Diapason 16=62
Diapasons 8=63
Diapasons 84=64
Diapasons 842=65
Choir Chorus=66
Mild English Chorus=67
Ripieno III (g.o.)=68
Plein Jeu VI (Neo-Baroque)=69
Cymbale IV (Neo-Baroque)=70
Twinkly Flute Mixture=71
Suaviola 8=72
Quintadena 4=73
Corinthian Flute 8=74
Glockenspiel 8=75
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: instrument patches

Reply #19 –
Lawrie,

You are a genius!  It was in fact those ****** spaces. Removing the spaces restored the system and I now have a surfeit of soundfonts to choose from..

It's great to have such helpful fellows on the forum.

Tony

Re: instrument patches

Reply #20 –
Hi Tony,
glad I could help...

Dunno about genius, but I've been around long enough to know that it is the little things almost always catch us out.

Lawrie
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: instrument patches

Reply #21 –
I just noticed that NWC2 (1q) in the Properties->Instrument (F2) window shows a "patch value" which is 1 lower than the value shown in Score Review (R).

NWC1 never showed the patch value in the Properties window, and I don't know if MIDI starts to count its patches from 0 or 1. It is not much of an issue, but the NoteWorthy developers may want to make the display consistent?

Re: instrument patches

Reply #22 –
Confirmed.  I agree that things should be consistent.
Sincerely,
Francis Beaumier
Green Bay, WI

Re: instrument patches

Reply #23 –
Quote from: Anders Carlsson –
I just noticed that NWC2 (1q) in the Properties->Instrument (F2) window shows a "patch value" which is 1 lower than the value shown in Score Review (R).
This is by the way still true. :-) Another small issue that sometimes irritates me is that selecting a patch through "Predefined instruments" restores the values for default dynamic velocities and transposition to what they were before entering staff properties, i.e. if I know on beforehand that I will want -3 transposition, I can not confirm it other than exit the dialogue and go back, or I have to select the instrument patch first.

Re: instrument patches

Reply #24 –
This is easily overcome by using the itree facility. If I get time later today I will post an orchestral itree, which includes all the (common) transpositions values.