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problem with transpose

Hi.

I have a question.

I got a score ( Mozart - Idomeneo ).
I sequenced it to NWC file.

It's in D minor ( a B-flat mark )
how ever, there are two instruments :

1) Corni in F.
2) Corni in D.

which have no Flat or Sharp mark and are notated with a plain Treble Clef.

now, of course after I finished inserting it all -
those two instruments don't sound right with the rest of the orchestra.

how should I transpose it ?

( a simple CTRL+SHIFT up\down won't do the trick
and I need the right key signature for the transpose to work, if it is possible in this case )

Ori

Re: problem with transpose

Reply #2 –
Don't forget that you always need a key signature, especially when transposing. For the key of C Major, select it from "Insert Key Signature." It will show as a grayed out F natural.

Re: problem with transpose

Reply #3 –
I think David gave incorrect advice for your situation.  What he told you applies if you have a score written at concert pitch and you want to generate a part for a transposing instrument.  You probably have a score with parts for horns already transposed and ready to play.  It is just the transposition on playback that needs to be changed.  The written notes should not change.

Horns traditionally have no key signature in their parts - all necessary sharps and flats are indicated by accidentals.  However, horns in F ARE transposing instruments and sound a perfect fifth lower (-7 semitones) than written.  You need to edit staff properties (tright click on the staff and you will see it at the bottom of the menu and enter -7 in the transposition box on the midi tab.

I'm not sure about Horns in D they may sound a seventh lower (-10 semitones) or a second higher (+2 semitones).  We need advice from a horn player.

Hope this helps,

Stephen

Re: problem with transpose

Reply #4 –
The Transposition option from Staff Properties, MIDI tab is used to compensate for instruments who do not sound in Concert C (A440) pitch.

Re: problem with transpose

Reply #5 –
Stephen and David - Thanks.

I'll try it - see if it works.

ori

Re: problem with transpose

Reply #6 –
Half of the string section in my orchestra do not sound in Concert C (A440) pitch...

Re: problem with transpose

Reply #7 –
I likely misunderstood what Ori started with.

I took it that he was starting with a midi file wchich would have displayed the notes in concert pitch.

However, if he was copying notes from a transposed piece, he already would have entered a key signature and the notes are already transposed for reading, and the problem is to adjust the pitch of the written notes.

If I have a transposing instrument, in this case a french horn which is pitched in F, when I play a written C I get a concert pitch sound of F.

If Ori is starting with a score notated for the transposing instrument - in other words with the french horn part, he needs to use F2, then the midi tab, and set the transposition to -10.  That means the notes he hears on playback will be 10 half-tones below what is written.

However, if he has a part that is written in concert pitch, then he has to use the transpose tool to raise the written notes by 10 half-tones.  This will also create the new key signature he needs.

The key (no pun intended) is to know where you are starting from - a transposed part or an untransposed one.

When I'm reading a score for wind ensemble, I might prefer the score to be in concert pitch or to be transposed.  The advantage of having everything in concert pitch is that it's easy to read the harmonies.  On the other hand, if the score is transposed and someone requests a note check, then I can tell the players what notes they should have on their parts.

Tuesday, one of our clarinet players asked our conductor for a note check.  The conductor gave him the notes in concert pitch from his score, but this was confusing because the player was reading out his notes as untransposed.  i.e., "I have a C# in my part but it doesn't sound right?"  "No, it should be a D#."  This type of conversation happens many times, and it's almost a Laurel and Hardy show ("Who's on first?")

Re: problem with transpose

Reply #8 –
no David !

You understood very well indeed.

I used your table and it worked perfect !!!
( I had Horns in F, D, Es and C )

I also wasn't aware of the principle that if it says, for example, that an instrument is in F - then they mean that while they are playing a C - it sounds like a lower F.

now that I get it - I'll use it for future cases.

for the question of transposed notes or not -
I also use to transpose everything for me to read the harmonies.
in this particular case I also had along with the Basso and the Treble Clefs - Alto Tenor and a 5th I didn't know the was - of the soprano singer.
( this was harder to transpose to Treble Clef - since NWC has no Clef built for it ).

now, If I choose to transpose the Horns to D minor like the other instrument - can I assume a C major key signature ?

thanks again.

Ori

Re: problem with transpose

Reply #9 –
Well,
I asumed a C major key - and then made a staff transpose -
and it worked.

ori

Re: problem with transpose

Reply #10 –
I'm glad it worked, Ori.

One thing I forgot to point out, some instruments are transposing instruments - Bb trumpet, Bb clarinet, A clarinet, Eb alto sax, Eb baritone sax, Bb tenor sax, F horn, Eb horn, etc.

However, sometimes when a note is part of the name of the instrument, it refers to the fundamental note of the instrument (I think that means the lowest note it can play).

There is an excellent discussion of this whole topic here:
https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=1649