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High-pitch "ring" on playback

I have an annoying high-pitch harmonic "ring" on playback that I have been unable to eliminate.  This "ring" is similiar to the  "Tinnitus" that many folks suffer with their hearing.  Perhaps that is a good description, i.e., "NWC tinnitus"?

I am writing 4-part gospel music using a separate stave for each part.  I am also using the acoustic grand piano for all for parts, Channel 1 for soprano, Ch2 for alto, Ch3 for tenor, Ch4 for bass and Ch10 for drums.

The "ringing" seems to be associated with the soprano and alto parts.  It cannot be heard when I "mute" these two staves.  Changing the part volume does not help, nor does changing the stero pan.

I'd like to eliminate this "ringing" if possible.

Suggestions?

Thanks in advance!

Re: High-pitch "ring" on playback

Reply #1 –
You probably have a note with an accidental tied to a note that is inadvertently unmodified, like a C# tied to a C, where you mean C#. The accidental must be entered for both of the notes, though the second will not show on the printed page.

Re: High-pitch "ring" on playback

Reply #2 –
If you search for t ex "stuck" or "hanging note", you will find lots of better anwers than mine (above). By doing this I just found out that you kan press F3 to search for a "hanging note tie".

Re: High-pitch "ring" on playback

Reply #3 –
Regretfully, this problem is not a "stuck" note.  'Sides, it is on ALL my tunes.

It sounds more like a "sympathetic" ringing of an upper piano string whenever a lower string of the same note is struck loudly.

I sincerely appreciate your interest and suggestions anyhow!

Re: High-pitch "ring" on playback

Reply #4 –
Unless there's a problem with your sound card, I can think of only one thing other than stuck notes: clipping.

It may be that you have each of your channels within NWC set at maximum amplitude. Chorded notes (or multiple intruments) can combine to make a volume that exceeds the maximum audio waveform limits (independent of your soundcard). When that happens, the waveform is clipped or (in some systems) misinterpreted.

Try reducing the volume of your channels. Does lower volume help?

If you are recording your MIDI to an audio file format (WAV) using a program such as Timidity (descibed elsewhere in this forum), then you can analyze the waveform with somthying such as the free Audacity program. You would be able to see clipping, or a phantom pitch.

Re: High-pitch "ring" on playback

Reply #5 –
There are two other possibilities:

- Electromagnetic interference in the PC case near the sound card

- Faulty or inadequate synthesizer hardware

Re: High-pitch "ring" on playback

Reply #6 –
Hi Al, Often occurs when same note is written in more than one staff. It is a harmonic, usually octave. You can 'cheat' it out by deleting one of the notes and putting a rest in it's place. Lew.

Re: High-pitch "ring" on playback

Reply #7 –
If you have the same instrument patch (i.e. sample) on two different staves then you'll get interference between them because the same waveform is being played at slightly out of synch (the two MIDI events to start the notes playing can't be precisely simultaneous).

Perhaps you could try setting one of the channels to a different instrument and see if the problem persists.

Re: High-pitch "ring" on playback

Reply #8 –
All good suggestions. If all those fail, you might be able to send a sample file to me (or Noteworthy) to see if we also have the ringing on our computers. If not, then may be a hardware/related software glitch or setting.

Re: High-pitch "ring" on playback

Reply #9 –
As Peter says,use say an organ voice on soprano and piano on alto or another way to beat it is with the pan.Put soprano at say 1 and alto at 127. It works!

Re: High-pitch "ring" on playback

Reply #10 –
Well, I tried all of the suggested fixes with no improvement at all.  I could'nt figure out how to check for electromagnetic interference within my computer case, but I do use a flat-panel monitor (NEC) and I have my speakers sitting several feet away from my computer.

This "harmonic" ring seems to be exactly an octave higher than the desired note. Also, its volume "fades" over time just as with a regular "held" note.

It continues to exist even when I write only one note on one stave in a completely new NWC file.  (This should eliminate all problems between different staves, using the same instrument, etc.) For example:  I opened a new file for NWC and put a single stave on it.  Treble clef. Tempo 90.  Volume 70. Pan 127.  I then wrote 4 whole notes separated by bars and tied these together with a "tie".  The "ring" still sounds, seemingly unaffected by any of the changes that I make.

When I save the NWC file as a Type 1 MIDI and play this MIDI back on the Windows MIDI player, the ring is still there.

I use a new HP Pavilion a350n computer with a 2.8 Ghz Pentium 4 processor, 1.5 of RAM, running MS XP.  The sound card is whatever came with the machine.  I use Acoustic Authority amplified speakers with a 3rd bass speaker.  Music, CDs, etc. sound fine.

I am beginning suspect that the problem is in my sound card.  Perhaps when the card "renders" a sound based on its instructions, the sound it produces has the "ring" as an inherent part of its makeup.

Regardless, the problem exists with the original NWC composition.  It is unaffected by being recorded to the .wav format.

Anyone who would like a copy of a file (certified virus free)containing the single note with the "ring" please email me at debo@webjemm.net and I'll send you a copy.

Re: Steve Pearson.  I am a neophyte on this forum and I don't know how to send you a copy.

Re: Lew.  I am sending you a sample of the single note file.  Please let me know if you detect the "ring".

Thanks all!

debo

Re: High-pitch "ring" on playback

Reply #12 –
You are not imagining the high-pitched ringing. I hear it, too. But there is nothing NWC can do about it, since the program is not the cause. It has to do with the sound database that your computer is using.

I took your single-note sample, and recorded it to audio (WAV file) by several methods. One method was to live-record the sound produced by playing it within NWC. The others involved saving the *nwc file as MIDI, then recording the MIDI to WAV using three independent methods (using different sound databases).

From within NWC, and also when MIDI was played by Windows Media Player 9 (same sound database), I could hear the ringing. When the MIDI was played in QuickTime 6, I believe I could hear it. But when I played it using an entirely different instrument definition set, there was no ringing.

I analyzed the waveform spectra. There is no actual high-pitched tone. But the Windows instrument definition for piano has rather sharply defined fundamental and harmonic frequencies. That is, the pitches look like teeth of a comb. On the other hand, the better sound database had a lot more stuff at frequencies between the theoretical pitch harmonics. This gives a more "rounded" sound.

Generally, if your music draws upon numerous, different instruments, the net effect will be to round out the tones. But with a limited range of instruments, or chords from one instrument, the "ringing" effect will be more pronounced.

One possible solution is to use an improved sound database. My computer is a laptop, so I cannot change the soundcard. But I can use a large software sound databse that sounds better (in some cases, not always).

Look through this forum for "Timidity." That might help, and it is free. But it won't change the sound of audio played directly within NWC, since NWC uses whatever is loaded into your sound card (or, something like that...)

Re: High-pitch "ring" on playback

Reply #13 –
I suspect that there is someone or somebody inside your computer, playing these notes just to mess with your head.

I know that's the kind of thing I would do if I knew how...

Re: High-pitch "ring" on playback

Reply #14 –
Re: Robert.

I certainly appreciate the interest and effort you have expended helping with this problem.  I also sincerely appreciate all of the suggestions that everyone else made.

I was hoping for something simpler, but, alas 'twas not to be.

It seems that my alternatives are few.  I can "live with it" or...

The music I am arranging is used to create .wav files so that I can make CDs for use by our very small church.  Frequently we have no live piano player and we use the CDs as music for our hymns.  It seems that everyone there wants the music to duplicate a piano as much as possible.

We have already purchased a commercial "Digital Hymnal" (a fancied-up MIDI player for church use that uses ONLY its internal proprietary MIDIs), but most of our favorite hymns are not available on it.

So, it seems that my only practical alternative is to change sound cards on my computer.  At least, that is what I think I'll have to do.

Does anyone have suggestions for a really good sound card that will render quality piano sounds?  Or, perhaps, someone may have other suggestions.

As usual, thanks in advance.

debo

Re: High-pitch "ring" on playback

Reply #15 –
I'm quite content with Soundblaster Live!, which I bought with my computer, a year or so ago.  I have a soundfont from http://www.hammersound.net/ (can't remember which one), and the piano is quite true.  Some other instruments are good too, but some leave something to be desired.

The Soundblaster Live card was relatively inexpensive, I think perhaps $60 or $70 Canadian. I think the shop disabled the sound chip that was on the mother board.

Soundblaster has a number of products out there, I've seen messages where people seem to have some problems with Soundblaster Audigy, but I don't know if those are real problems or just newbies not quite sure how to make it work.

I have a 5 speaker system plugged into the soundcard.  That is a woofer, with its own amp, and four smaller satellite speakers.  This product is from Logitech, the people who also make mice, and is very satisfactory.  Mine was reconditioned and cost about $40; new it would have been double that, I think.

You can certainly spend a lot more to get something much better, but my setup meets my needs (jazz recordings - 1920 to 1970).

Soundblaster comes with software called Creative Wavemaker.  Write your music in NWC, and when you play it back, if you've turned Wavemaker on, it will capture the sound signal going through the sound card, and turn it into your wave file.  Wavemaker supports stereo, and will allow you to do some editing on either left, right or both tracks.

Re: High-pitch "ring" on playback

Reply #16 –
Debo: You do not necessarily need another sound card. Try using "Timidity" or another alternative. Go to the NWC user tips section, and look for the tip about recording MIDI to WAV or other audio formats. It has all the links, and instructions.

Re: High-pitch "ring" on playback

Reply #17 –
debo,

Sorry not to get back right away. Tied up with work.

Downloaded the nwc Ringtest file. I did not hear a ring. I use a Soudblaster Live Value card with the onboard soundset (Creative s/w synth). Soundblaster is generally a pretty good card, and not too expensive anymore (particularly for the older "Live" series. You may want to consider it.

I noted that you were creating CD's. Just as a note, I use MusicMatch to record off NWC (in my case, into mp3 format, although it will also record into the longer wave files) and, after opening up the files in the MusicMatch window, right click to create the CD. Music Match can also "normalize" music (make various songs have consistent volume). Very simple process.

In any event, I have some step-by-step instructions at http://www.psalmistry.com/midi_mp3_cd.htm. (Feel free to use any of the music, by the way, if helpful. The mp3's will be pretty consistent on sound without regard to the soundcard involved, unlike midi/nwc files.)

Re: High-pitch "ring" on playback

Reply #18 –
I sincerely appreciate all of the help and suggestions you guys provided to me regarding this problem.

I'll soon begin working on some of the things you suggested.  With all these hints and suggestions, I'll bet that I get it worked out.

As for right now, I gotta throw a tad water on some different fires. So...

Have a HAPPY CHRISTMAS AND A MERRY NEW YEAR!

uhhh...

Make that MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

Bye,

debo

PS:  I will disable the "sample" files forthwith.