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Topic: Pitch (Read 7715 times) previous topic - next topic

Pitch

I just downloaded NoteWorthy Composer for testing purposes. By fiddling a bit now I pretty much know how to use it, although I presume there is much more to it.

My problem is the following, I have been composing piano pieces for years. Recently I entered the world of orchestration, and have handwritten scores for a symphony, based on a huge piano piece of mine, which I already entried in NWC. I turned out to sound much better than I thought.

I have heard that some intruments in an orchestra are transposed. I wrote, for instance, the trumpets, french horns, clarinets in regular notation. i.e. first line from the bass clef is G, second is B and first line from the treble clef is E, second is G and so on.
Is this right? I mean, will I get that very pitch from the performer?

THANX IN ADVANCE!!!!!!!!

Re: Pitch

Reply #1 –
Here's the poop:

Yes, certain instruments transpose. That is, given a particular written note, they sound some other note instead. For example, the French Horn sounds a perfect 5th (7 semitones) lower than written. For example, when it encounters a written C, it actually plays the F below that.

(This is not quite a matter of having the lines and spaces of the staff meaning a different note, as you imply. Instead, we refer to "written pitch" and "concert pitch", and the notes as they appear on the staff have the same "written pitch" as a nontransposing instrument. For example, the bottom line of the French Horn's treble staff is still an E (in written pitch), but when the Horn player actually plays the note, it sounds an A (in concert pitch).

The way to achieve the correct transposition in NWC is to use the Transpose Staff tool, making sure to leave the "update staff playback transposition" box checked. For example, if you wrote for the Horn at concert pitch, you would transpose its written representation up 7 semitones (because the horn is written a 5th higher than it sounds), but you would want to introduce a corresponding playback transposition of -7 so that the staff continued to play back at concert pitch, which is what "update staff playback transposition" does.

The transposing instruments in the standard orchestra & band are:

Piccolo (sounds an octave higher than written)
Alto flute (sounds a fourth lower than written)
Cor anglais (sounds a fifth lower than written)
E-flat clarinet (sounds a minor third higher than written)
B-flat clarinet (sounds a major second lower than written)
A clarinet (sounds a minor third lower than written)
Bass clarinet (sounds a major ninth lower than written)
B-flat soprano sax (sounds a major second lower than written)
E-flat alto sax (sounds a major sixth lower than written)
B-flat tenor sax (sounds a major ninth lower than written)
E-flat baritone sax (sounds a major thirteenth lower than written)
B-flat bass sax (sounds a major sixteenth lower than written)
French Horn (sounds a fifth lower than written)
B-flat trumpet, cornet & flugelhorn (sound a major second lower than written)
D trumpet (sounds a major second higher than written)
E-flat trumpets and cornet (sound a minor third higher than written)
E-flat bass trumpet (sounds a major sixth lower than written)
B-flat bass trumpet (sounds a major ninth lower than written)
B-flat euphonium (sounds a major ninth lower than written, if in treble clef)
Glockenspiel (sounds two octaves higher than written)
Celesta (sounds an octave higher than written)
String Bass (sounds an octave lower than written)

It's worth noting that the correct notation for the octave-transposing instruments is to avoid NWC's "octave up" and "octave down" clefs and use regular clefs with -12 or +12 semitone transpositions instead.

Re: Pitch

Reply #2 –
Many of the wind instruments are not in the key of C/concert pitch. It would take a fairly long response to cover all of the transposing instruments, and even then, there are some variations. Your best bet is to get a book on orchestration, which will not only tell you how to transpose for the needed instruments, but will also show the ranges and best ways to write for the various instruments. There are several previous discussion threads dealing with this. Some more recent ones are:
https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=1645
https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=1590
https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=1360
If you haven't already done so, there is more on this at the NWC Scriptorium and at the newsgroup (there is a link on the site map). You might also want to download the offline version of the forum where there are many other discussions and suggestions on this.

Re: Pitch

Reply #3 –
To REALLY simplify everything that could be said about that, here's just about the best way to decipher transposing instruments:

When it is said that you have a Bb trumpet, it means that when the trumpet plays a "C", you'll hear a concert Bb! A F French Horn, when it plays a "C", you hear an F!

So, an "X" instrument, when playing a C - always plaing a C - will give you an X!!! Eb Alto Sax plays a C, it's an Eb!

Why bother with endless lists of instruments and interval differences when it's so easy to make a mistake of a minor third down or up?!? THIS is the best way! Use it myself, never been fooled!

Good luck!

Re: Pitch

Reply #4 –
Your system has one problem; is the Eb instrument transposed a minor third up, or a major 6th down? This is where relative intervals are completely unambiguous.

Re: Pitch

Reply #5 –
David,

I think just about everybody goes about it the way you do, i.e., an instrument in key X plays the pitch X when it plays a written C. However, there are at least two ways in which this is insufficient:

1) (the one Fred's already pointed out:) *which* X? The one immediately above, the one immediately below, the one in the octave below that? Take a look, for example, at the entries for B-flat soprano sax, B-flat tenor sax and B-flat bass sax in my original response. It's certainly true that they all play a B-flat when they encounter a C, but it's not the same B-flat, and it makes a difference.

2) There are some instruments which, under traditional notation, transpose differently depending on which clef is used. In scores from the 19th century and earlier, French horns are written a fifth higher than concert pitch when the treble clef is used (this is also modern practice), but when the bass clef is used they're written a fourth *lower*. An even weirder practice is still found today in notation for the B-flat euphonium, which can either be written at concert pitch (i.e., non-transposing) in the bass clef or a major ninth higher (transposing) in the treble clef.

Re: Pitch

Reply #6 –
Ah, if music were easy, everyone would be a musician.

As I am fond of asking my choir director, "B#, Cb, what's the difference?"

Re: Pitch

Reply #7 –
About $1.00.

Re: Pitch

Reply #8 –
One complicating factor is that for some instruments a note name is used to specify the size as well as the transposition (sometimes). For example, tubas come in many varieties. Orchestral players probably use F or C tubas most frequently; concert band players most often use Eb or Bb (actually double Bb abbreviated as BBb); brass band players use Eb and BBb almost exclusively. The sizes go smallest - F then Eb then C then BBb - largest. The name refers to the pitch of the fundamental note. In general, orchestral parts are written in concert pitch using bass clef. An F tubist would play the same pitch as a C tubist using a different fingering/harmonic combination and the choice of instrument is up to the player.

In Concert band parts there are occasionally different parts for BBb and Eb instruments (particularly in late 1800s, early 1900 pieces) Where the composer wants to use the different "weight" of sound from the two instruments - but both would be written in bass clef at the pitch that the instruments sound. In most cases only one bass clef part is provided and the choice of instrument is up to the player - again the fingering/harmonic combination to achieve a particular pitch will depend on which instrument is played.

For brass band parts, the Eb and BBb instruments would have separate parts, both using treble clef; the Eb tuba would be written transposing down a major 13th (written middle C sounds Eb below the bass clef), whereas the double Bb would be transposing down a major 16th (written middle C sounds Bb below the bass clef). In this case the fingering/harmonic combination is identical for any particular WRITTEN note. The pitch of the note that comes out, however, will depend on which instrument is playing it.

HTH

Stephen Randall (part time BBb tubist).