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Changing the key signature

Hello,

I have keyed in the notes of a song, when trying to sing with it, I feel the pitch is too high, so I want it to be 3 sharp instead of 3 flat. To change the keysignature is easy, but how about the notes. Is there any fast way to change them on the staffs.

Thank you,

Frank

Re: Changing the key signature

Reply #1 –
First of all, put your cursor on the staff and select tools / Force accidentals.
Then (with the key signature still at 3 flat, select tools / transpose staff, .

In the semitones box, select 6 (+6 that is) . Make sure the Update staff box does not have a tick in it.

Click on OK

Rich.

Re: Changing the key signature

Reply #2 –
Thanks  Rich, I will try it

Frank

Re: Changing the key signature

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Richard Woodroffe –

In the semitones box, select 6 (+6 that is) . Make sure the Update staff box does not have a tick in it.

Click on OK



Could you tell me what is the basis to put +6?. I never take music shool, just self study, and my friend said, if 3 flat is A=1, when I use my chrome fulit 3 Flat is A=1 for 1st tenor, but when I changed like you said + 6. it is higher in pitch than I expected. That is why I ask you what is the basis of putting 6.

Thank you.

Frank

Re: Changing the key signature

Reply #4 –
Well re-reading your request, I should have said -6 since you wanted the pitch lowered. 

-6 would have bought the staff to 3 sharps but a lower pitch than your current 3 flats.
Since there are 12 semitones in an octave, 6 up would go higher whilst 6 down would go lower.
So if you have already made that change, doing another transpose of -12 will keep the key the same but lower the staff by an octave.

The relationship between one key and another can be said to be the number of semitones difference. (There is something called the circle of fifths - but not going into that deeply)

Consider the attached diagram (not mine - just Googled it for this answer !) . Each division is a semitone so you can count how many semitones you need to raise of lower the current key to get to the key you want.  In NoteWorthy, it is better to force accidentals before transposing.  Also, do not try to manually change the key signature since NoteWorthy will do it for you when you transpose.


In the transpose screen, there is also a tick box called "update staff play  back transposition". For a simple transposition, this box should not be set - It is mainly to do with transposing instruments  - not getting into that here!

So looking at the diagram, you can see that if you wanted to go from a key with 2 sharps in it to a key with 2 flats, the number of sections between those to keys is 8 going clockwise and 4 going anti-clockwise.

So in the NoteWorthy transpose screen, entering 8 semitones will raise the pitch to two flats (Key of Bb) whilst entering -4 will lower the pitch to the Bb key below the original 2 sharps (D key).

Hope this helps
Rich.

Re: Changing the key signature

Reply #5 –
Thank you Richard, I will try to understand first what you are explaining, because English is not our mother tongue, but since we immigrated from Indonesia to the US 8 years ago, we have to learn English.

I will let you know my progress, for the time being we are keeping Sabbath now.

Thank you,

Frank

Re: Changing the key signature

Reply #6 –
Quote from: Richard Woodroffe –
So looking at the diagram, you can see that if you wanted to go from a key with 2 sharps in it to a key with 2 flats, the number of sections between those to keys is 8 going clockwise and 4 going anti-clockwise.

Thank you Rich for your explanation, I know now how to lower or increase the tone. The reason I asked you how to lower it to 3 Sharps, is because when we practice it, the soprano said it is to high, she is a girl, she said for men maybe it is not high, but for women it is high she said.

Then when she was singing the tone in number NOte which is 5 ( sol), I tried to see my starting pitch theory which I was told by my friend, see attached. I tried to blow my chrome pitch tuner, the basic tone the lady( soprano likes is under A=1 (do), we call it "do" which is in the staffs is for tenor, and when I see in the starting Pitch A=1 is under 3 sharp, while our song book, the song is under 3 flats, that is why I asked you how can we make it to 3 sharps.

But in fact when we sang it it is too low so it was not so good, so I better use your suggestion. So I should have had just to lower it to 1 semitone. Lower it to 6 semthone is too low.

When we see us singing here it was too low, not sound good. ( I do not know how to copy a link jump directly to specific time start, where you can see 2 men and  2 women, they are seniors singing)
https://www.youtube.com/embed/HiUrHrH6U_c?start=1135
What is the best way to  adjust the pitch to the capability of the Soprano, do you have any suggestion?

Thank you

Frank
 

Re: Changing the key signature

Reply #7 –
Hi Frank,

I really have no other suggestions apart from lowering the pitch by say 2 or 3 semitones and then see if it suits all voices.

Remember, that if you lower the tone by 3 semitones and that is too low for a bass, you can always raise the bass line by an octave, (12 semitones).

Maybe some others may have a better idea ?

Rich.
 
Rich.

Re: Changing the key signature

Reply #8 –
A good rule of thumb for general congregational singing is to aim for a soprano line that stays within the range from middle C (C4) to the C above (C5).  In truth you have a little leeway here (say Bb3 to D5), but if you aim for the range C4 to C5 you shouldn't go far wrong.

Alto range would be around G3 (below middle C) to G4 above.

Tenor range an octave below Soprano, I.E. C3 to C4, and

Bass would be F2 to F3.

Strictly speaking, all these ranges should be able to be extended by around a 5th (E.G. C4 to G5 for soprano) but that extension will not usually be achievable by untrained voices.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Changing the key signature

Reply #9 –
Hi Frank - can you do "singing in" before the song is performed? - because if you do this - just some relaxing and then singing a few triads up and down the scale -, the range of your singers can be extended by at least a third, I'd say. That's why choirs do this :-)

Regards
H.M.

Re: Changing the key signature

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
A good rule of thumb for general congregational singing is to aim for a soprano line that stays within the range from middle C (C4) to the C above (C5).  In truth you have a little leeway here (say Bb3 to D5), but if you aim for the range C4 to C5 you shouldn't go far wrong.

Thanks Lawrie for your explanation, what do you mean by  middle C (C4) to the C above (C5), does it mean we lower or higher on the reange of 4 semitones?.
What I do according to Richards' explanation, if I lower in the Soprano let's say 2 semitone, in Alto, Tenor and Bass I lower them in 2 semitone. Am I right ?.

Thank you,

Frank

Re: Changing the key signature

Reply #11 –
Quote from: hmmueller –
Hi Frank - can you do "singing in"

H.M.

We did practice before. The problem maybe after we are in the pulpit my friend was not relax... we have to admit, we are not a professional. You can imagine we immigrated from a developping country to the US, and  we have to adjust with our environments, but I said to my friends, let's do singging, to help us more healthier and slowing our grwoing  old.
'Your explanation on transporssing is a good way, coz I can put in the Noteworthy if I lower or higher in 1 or 2 semitone.,

Anyway what do you mean by lower or higher one third, is it one third of an octave?

Thank you

Frank

Re: Changing the key signature

Reply #12 –
Quote from: FrankSit –
Thanks Lawrie for your explanation, what do you mean by  middle C (C4) to the C above (C5), does it mean we lower or higher on the reange of 4 semitones?.
What I do according to Richards' explanation, if I lower in the Soprano let's say 2 semitone, in Alto, Tenor and Bass I lower them in 2 semitone. Am I right ?.
All it means is that the "tessitura" (range from lowest note to highest note) of the Soprano part should, if possible, stay between C4 and C5.  See here for an explanation of note names in so called "scientific pitch notation":
https://www.allaboutmusictheory.com/piano-keyboard/music-note-names/

The idea is to try to make a best case compromise to place the Soprano part within pitch limits that can be sung by the congregation.  So, as an example, you may have a song where the range of the Soprano part is F4 to A5.  This is too high, so you need to do a key change to bring it down to, say, Bb3 to D5 - this range is a little outside the desired C4 to C5 BUT it is not impossibly so, therefore this is a good compromise.  F4 to Bb3 is a drop of 7 semitones, so you need to transpose this imaginary song down 7 semitones.

You must transpose ALL the parts so they are all in the same key.  When you do this it is possible that some of the lower parts could end up too low, so you need to consider moving the notes around so that all the chord tones are still covered.  This could be as simple as raising some of the lowest notes to the next octave up, OR even moving some notes around between the lower voices.  This needs to be considered on a case by case basis.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.
 

Re: Changing the key signature

Reply #13 –
Quote from: FrankSit –
Anyway what do you mean by lower or higher one third, is it one third of an octave?
A third = 3 notes, e.g. from C to A (downwards); or from B to D (upwards).

With some singing in ("warmup") before a performance, all the "singing muscles" relax, and it is then possible to reach more notes - like in sports  ;D Extending the range by a third is possible - no big deal, just "oiling your voice" a little before the performance  :)) Then, you might not have to shift the song up or down!

H.M.

Re: Changing the key signature

Reply #14 –
Listening as a former chorister, unfortunately no longer in business, it's really nice to hear these "tricks" of the trade. Well done and some as usual always available!

Re: Changing the key signature

Reply #15 –
Quote from: hmmueller –
Quote from: FrankSit –
With some singing in ("warmup") before a performance, all the "singing muscles" relax, and it is then possible to reach more notes - like in sports  ;D Extending the range by a third is possible - no big deal, just "oiling your voice" a little before the performance  :)) Then, you might not have to shift the song up or down!

This is good suggestion  Mueller, as you can see here,
https://www.youtube.com/embed/HiUrHrH6U_c?start=1135&End=1237
 I am the very left if you're facing video, and the soprano the lady in my left is not relax which was affecting her voice, because we did not practice before performance.
So thank you very much for your suggestion.

Re: Changing the key signature

Reply #16 –
Quote from: Richard Woodroffe –
Well re-reading your request, I should have said -6 since you wanted the pitch lowered. 

-6 would have bought the staff to 3 sharps but a lower pitch than your current 3 flats.
Since there are 12 semitones in an octave, 6 up would go higher whilst 6 down would go lower.
So if you have already made that change, doing another transpose of -12 will keep the key the same but lower the staff by an octave.

The relationship between one key and another can be said to be the number of semitones difference. (There is something called the circle of fifths - but not going into that deeply)

Consider the attached diagram (not mine - just Googled it for this answer !) . Each division is a semitone so you can count how many semitones you need to raise of lower the current key to get to the key you want.  In NoteWorthy, it is better to force accidentals before transposing.  Also, do not try to manually change the key signature since NoteWorthy will do it for you when you transpose.


In the transpose screen, there is also a tick box called "update staff play  back transposition". For a simple transposition, this box should not be set - It is mainly to do with transposing instruments  - not getting into that here!

So looking at the diagram, you can see that if you wanted to go from a key with 2 sharps in it to a key with 2 flats, the number of sections between those to keys is 8 going clockwise and 4 going anti-clockwise.

So in the NoteWorthy transpose screen, entering 8 semitones will raise the pitch to two flats (Key of Bb) whilst entering -4 will lower the pitch to the Bb key below the original 2 sharps (D key).

Hope this helps

Hi Rich,

What code is the third inner sign, for example 2 flats, the starting pitch is D, and what is Bm.

Thank you.
Frank

Re: Changing the key signature

Reply #17 –
Frank, I think it would really help you to understand more music theory.  Go here:
https://dolmetsch.com/introduction.htm

It's in English, but you can use Google Translate to read it in Indonesian.  Go to https://translate.google.com/?sl=en&tl=fr&op=websites and copy the dolmetsch URL into the left window.  In the right window,  use the down arrow to select Indonesian.  

You might like to ask your singer what her range is.  Your smartphone may have a tuner app that will name the notes when she sings them. I use an app called gStrings.

The transposition tool in NWC asks you how many semitones you want to transpose.  This may be easier to understand if you look at the piano keyboard and count the white AND black keys, so for instance to go from D major (it has 2 sharps) to Bb major (it has 2 flats), you count down 4 keys or up 8.  Think of a major scale as a staircase, where the first step is a whole step, the second is a whole, step, the third is only a half step, the fourth is another whole step, the fifth is a whole, the sixth is a whole step, and the seventh is a half step - so: tone, tone, semi-tone, tone, tone, tone. semitone.

Re: Changing the key signature

Reply #18 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
Quote from: FrankSit –
https://www.allaboutmusictheory.com/piano-keyboard/music-note-names/


Hi Lawrie,
Thanks for the above website I have read it and  I got more lesson from it.
Now my question is, since for us Indonesian, it is easier to learn song by singing the Number note (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1). Do you have any other way to key in the number into the lyrics other then manually key them in?.

Thank you.

Frank

Re: Changing the key signature

Reply #19 –
Quote from: FrankSit –
Hi Lawrie,
Thanks for the above website I have read it and  I got more lesson from it.
Now my question is, since for us Indonesian, it is easier to learn song by singing the Number note (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1). Do you have any other way to key in the number into the lyrics other then manually key them in?.
Into the lyrics?  No. 
My best suggestion is this User Tool written by Opagust:
https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=9590.0
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.