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Topic: How would you play this? (Read 3720 times) previous topic - next topic

How would you play this?

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.751,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Note|Dur:Whole,Slur|Pos:b-5
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Whole,Slur|Pos:b-5
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Whole,Slur|Pos:-5
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:-5
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

This extract is from the bass clarinet part of a long composition written with no key signature.  I'm not familiar with music written without a key signature; I gather it may be called an "open key" or somesuch.  I've confirmed the oboe and english horn parts also have no key signatures. 

Since the notes are tied, NWC will interpret all four of these notes as D-flat.  I'm curious if you, a iving musician, would play the third and fourth bars.  

The accidental in the second bar may or may not be intentional.  If I know the arranger simply made a mistake in writing that flat,  I would play all four bars flat.  If the second bar is intentionally flatted, though, I must wonder why the arranger flattened that note and not the succeeding ones.  Maybe he meant the third and fourth bars to be D natural. 

Thoughts?

Re: How would you play this?

Reply #1 –
G'day David,
To me, no key signature is C or Am...  Though this bit:
Quote
I've confirmed the oboe and english horn parts also have no key signatures.
gives me pause...  Bass Clari is in Bb, Oboe is concert and English Horn is in F so either the score has been written with all parts in concert (and I assume the printed parts would be transposed), or your "open key" interpretation is correct.

As an intellectual exercise, what notes do the oboe and english horn have at the same part of the score as the bass clari. part shown?  Perhaps we can get an idea as to the functional key centre from that.  Perhaps worth comparing with other parts too.

As for the clip, I would interpret them the same as you: the notes are tied so they're all Db.  If they were slurred then the latter 2 would be D nat.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: How would you play this?

Reply #2 –
Hi Lawrie

The parts are transposed.  Here are the same four bars for the three instruments.  I don't think they help..

I haven't seen the score.  It might be in either concert pitch or transposed.  

When notes at the same vertical position I'm not sure how the musician is supposed to differentiate between slurs (which are necessary only when the pitch changes) and ties. but that's a different topic, I suppose.

Anyway, here's the image to look at.

Re: How would you play this?

Reply #3 –
Hey David,
with the parts transposed as stated* then:
the Db in the Bass Clari. is a concert B
the D# in the oboe is a concert D#
the Bb in the English horn is also a concert D# if my transposition is correct.

Assuming the bass clari is playing the root, maybe a B chord?  Especially if there's concert F#'s elsewhere.

Being a devil's advocate here  :)) : if there's no key signatures how do you know the parts are transposed?  :P

If the parts could be considered all in concert then the we have Db, Bb and D# (Eb?)...  Maybe an Eb7? with the G in another instrument?  But with the bass on the 7th?  Nah...  What about a Db6/9?  Maybe.., sumpthin's up  ::)
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: How would you play this?

Reply #4 –
I take it on faith that the parts are transposed. The band includes C, Bb, Eb and F instruments and the piece is too tough to expect us to sight-transpose.

You're right that the English horn sustained note is a concert D#.  I apologize for failing to copy the first note of the EH part; it's just a whole rest.  So the oboe note is taken over by the EH an octave lower.

I agree that the first two measures are consistent with a concert B major chord (or G# minor)..

I'm still stuck on the third and fourth measures, though. If the arranger meant the bass clarinet note to rise the half tone, he/she should have made it clear.

Both the composer and the arranger are alive, so maybe I should contact one or the other to see what the intention is.

Fun and games, eh?




Re: How would you play this?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: David Palmquist –
I take it on faith that the parts are transposed. The band includes C, Bb, Eb and F instruments and the piece is too tough to expect us to sight-transpose.
<snip>
You're probably right, but given there seems to be no key sigs. I'd be happier if the parts were labelled something like: Bass Clari. in Bb etc..

Quote
<snip>
I'm still stuck on the third and fourth measures, though. If the arranger meant the bass clarinet note to rise the half tone, he/she should have made it clear.
<snip>
They're tied, not slurred so I interpret it as Db all the way through.  I reckon the first note was placed, then copied to the next bar and the engraver forgot to remove the extraneous flat.  Lost count of the number of times I've done the same thing  ::)

Is there another bass instrument part you can compare with?  Maybe a bari sax, or tuba, or double bass - even bass trom.  There's often a doubling of that nature and you can see if it's the same.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: How would you play this?

Reply #6 –
Thanks again, Lawrie.

The tuba rests during those bars.  I'll probably eyeball the score this week.

BTW, my conductor agrees with you.

Re: How would you play this?

Reply #7 –
My own theory on the extraneous flat symbol is that it's a kind of "courtesy accidental" because there are other D's on different staves that have different accidentals in that measure. Specifically, the oboe part. I have seen these sorts of accidentals on some scores, even though they are not really needed, but maybe some musicians would see the accidental on an adjacent staff out of the corner of their eye and be tempted to observe it, so putting the flat on the note was intended to keep them from making that mistake.

Re: How would you play this?

Reply #8 –
Hi Mike,

I agree it could be a courtesy accidental of sorts, but then, why not one on the fourth bar which comes after a system break?

This piqued my curiousity is because it's probably the first time in nearly 60 years of playing that I've ever dealt with an "open" key signature in a fairly sophisticated composition - or maybe if I've encountered them, they were written so as to be very clear.  Here, it isn't, and the notation of these four bars is so ambiguous.

Courtesy accidentals are usually, but not always, bracketed and sometimes they occur several bars after an altered note.  I think it's fair to say there's no rule and usage is not consistent.  No problem, they're usually helpful.

Here, my own feeling is that is it not a courtesy accidental because there's no key signature, and I suspect every note that is not natural would be marked by a flat or sharp sign.  It's sloppy notation - written music should clearly convey the composer's wishes to the performer, and this doesn't do that. 

"Only the conductor knows for sure" what's in the other parts. I have the oboe and english horn parts because our oboist doubles and needed her parts combined into one so she didn't have to switch charts when moving from one horn to the other.  Otherwise I would never see them.  

As Lawrie suggests, the bass clar is probably playing the root of the chord, but that may not be the case.  Again, "only the conductor..." knows. 

If time permits tonight I'll take a boo at the full score to see if that casts light on things, then get back to everyone.

Cheers!



Re: How would you play this?

Reply #9 –
I'd say:
- If this was written with some software, someone just forgot to remove the flat symbol after a copy-paste of the first note, and then connecting them with a tie; or after redoing the line breaks (i.e., in a previous version - or in the complete score??!*), the second note might be on a new line.
- If this is a "old times punched(?)" score, I would still think it's simply an error.

(Historically, the French - I think - actually repeated the accidentals in ties over bar lines; but then, they did it consistently).

* Probably this makes most sense: In the full score, there IS a line break here, so the flat on the second note makes sense. In the part, there isn't a line break, but either the software cannot switch on/off accidentals depending on which part is printed; or if it can, someone forgot to set the switch in the part.

H.M.

Re: How would you play this?

Reply #10 –
Hi H.M.
It may indeed just be copy/paste error but I'm not certain.   The score has a page breaks after the second bar.  The two whole notes before the page break (bars 44 and 45) have the flat accidental written, but the two whole notes after the page break (bars 46 and 47) don't.

There are some moving parts, but if I'm transposing correctly the harmonic structure of bar 46 is different from bar 45, either if my note is natural or it's flat.

I've written to the arranger now.  If he replies, I'll let us all know what he says he meant there.



Re: How would you play this?

Reply #11 –
Question resolved.  The arranger kindly replied to my query with

Quote
Thanks for asking!  I remember how rushed the publisher was to get this to press--I had about 24 hours to proof, and I was still working full-time then! I am not surprised that some things are ambiguous.

Mm. 45-48 should all be written Db for bass clarinet. I think you and your friends have guessed correctly--there is an unnecessary accidental in m. 45, but the intent is for all four measures to be Db for bass clarinet.

Thanks so much for asking! 

I'm not sure if I'm happy or not.  I was thinking I was learning something about open key signatures.   But all is good!  Thanks everyone.