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3 Notes in a layered staff

Hello, I am working on keying the song book. In the attached I see there are 3 notes in a layered staffs. Usually only 2, one for soprano (1st voice) and one for Alto(2nd voice).

I can I key in it, which one is for soprano and which one is for alto.

Thank you for any help.

Frank

Re: 3 Notes in a layered staff

Reply #1 –
Hi Frank,
generally the Soprano would be the top note and the Alto the next one down, but I'm sure you know that.  ;)

I would actually like a bit more context from the score.  E.G. is it an SATB score, or Piano/Vocal or what? 
The reason I ask is that if the staff immediately below is singing the same words at the same time (I.E. a Tenor/Bass part), and is in Bass clef, then the A that is in the middle of the chord in question is mirrored in the bass and could probably, if necessary, be left out.

Without context it's difficult to be sure, but they may be expecting more voices than just Soprano/Alto.  Maybe Sop/Alto/Alto, or Sop/Sop/Alto...  Any number of possibilities.

Also, are you aware that you can create chords on a single staff without layering?
If not, please see the "Chord Member Command" in the Help screen.

Layering is often the best choice for complex chord structures, but not always necessary.  It IS very important when wanting to print separate parts for each voice while still being able to see them combined when appropriate.

See below for an example of chords on a single staff.  Click Select, <Ctrl+C> to copy to the clipboard and then paste it into a new staff, or as a new file, in NWC:
Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.751,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:C|Tonic:C
|TimeSig|Signature:4/4
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:-3,0|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:-3^,-1^,1^|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar
|Chord|Dur:16th|Pos:-3,-1,1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Chord|Dur:16th|Pos:-6,-3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:-6^,-3^|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:-6,-3
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:-1,1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:-3,0|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Also see attached Vocal Ranges file - N.B this is notional only - different authorities have different ideas.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: 3 Notes in a layered staff

Reply #2 –
I am quite sure this is an error (in an SATB score): The A's in the upper chord are against standard harmony rules ("do not double the third") and useless (no-one will hear them against the A in the bass, an outer voice).

H.M.

Re: 3 Notes in a layered staff

Reply #3 –
Quote from: hmmueller –
I am quite sure this is an error (in an SATB score): The A's in the upper chord are against standard harmony rules ("do not double the third") and useless (no-one will hear them against the A in the bass, an outer voice).
Always assuming it's an SATB score of course.  Unfortunately we don't really have context.
The staff below the (possible) tenor/bass staff has chords on it - perhaps it's the right hand of a piano grand staff?  Certainly the F2/A followed by an F/A  fits with the apparent vocal staves above as well as the notes written.  The A bass might explain the extra A in the vocal (perhaps it's really important to the melody/harmony?).  5, 9(2) and 12(5) in the right hand, and maybe 1 and 3 in the left?
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: 3 Notes in a layered staff

Reply #4 –
Hi  Lawrie, the context here is for vocal, because there are staffs for piano down below the vocal staffs. I would try to key in more than 1 note in a staff.

Thank you

Frank

Re: 3 Notes in a layered staff

Reply #5 –
Hi Lawrie, I tried to key in 2 notes in the same column position on alto staff, but I couldn't. I already use insert chord member, but still not successful. Could you please educate me?

Thank you

Frank

Re: 3 Notes in a layered staff

Reply #6 –
Dear Frank,

You probably know already that you can place a note "on the cursor position" by hitting the enter key.

The easiest way to add a chord note is by positioning the cursor on the place where you want the chord note and hitting CTRL+enter.
You can create this way even chords with multiple notes.

Only if you want "split chords" (chords with different durations) it is somewhat different. For instance the stem direction comes into the game. But maybe you don 't  need it here.

Best regards,
Bart

Re: 3 Notes in a layered staff

Reply #7 –
Hi Frank,
Quote from: FrankSit –
Hi  Lawrie, the context here is for vocal, because there are staffs for piano down below the vocal staffs. I would try to key in more than 1 note in a staff.
Thank you.  Now that I know that the staves are:

  • Sop/Alto
  • Ten/Bass
  • Piano Right
  • Piano Left

it makes it easier to figure out what's going on.

I will assume the Ten/Bass is in bass clef

Quote from: FrankSit –
Hi Lawrie, I tried to key in 2 notes in the same column position on alto staff, but I couldn't. I already use insert chord member, but still not successful. Could you please educate me?

Not sure what went wrong, but there's some rules to know:
  • Chord members of the same duration can have either the same or different stem directions
  • Chordmembers that are semibreves (whole notes) have a stem direction
  • Chord members of different durations must have opposite stem directions
  • Chord members with different stem directions cannot "cross over".  I.E. the upward stem MUST be the higher note*
  • Chord members may be the same pitch
  • Chord members of differing durations cannot be interspersed.  I.E. you cannot have, say, crotchet (quarter) D and G with a minim (half) B between them*
  • If there are chord members with duration of quaver (eighth) or less they can be beamed with other notes or chords BUT if multiple chord members with different stem directions exist only 1 stem direction can be beamed*
  • If you need a restchord (I.E. a chord that has a rest in one voice) then the rest MUST be the same or SHORTER duration than the note member(s)*
  • The rest in a restchord MUST be placed first
  • The rest in a restchord has a stem direction
  • The rest in a restchord can be hidden
  • You cannot have more than one rest in a restchord
  • The duration of a chord or restchord is the duration of the SHORTEST member
  • You cannot have more than 2 durations in a chord/restchord
  • Create chordmembers with <Ctrl+Enter>
  • REMOVE chordmembers with <Ctrl+Backspace>

* These are examples of where using layered staves is essential if you are to get the visual effect you want.

OK, that's a lot to remember and some of them still catch me out at times.  The easiest one to to create problems without realising what's going on is the stem direction rule(s).

So, if a chordmember won't happen check stem direction settings first to make sure you aren't crossing over or something.
My rule of thumb is to make sure NO stem direction is set before making a chord UNLESS I already know I will need differing stem directions that I need to control.

Now, a quick step by step to creating a chord:
  • Make sure no stem directions are set
  • Set duration to crotchet (quarter)
  • Position the cursor for the first note, lets make this an "F" on the bottom treble space
  • Press <Enter> (N.B NOT <Ctrl+Enter>)
  • Move the cursor up twice to the "A" space.**
  • Press <Ctrl+Enter> (N.B NOT <Enter>).  This should make the second chordmember.
  • Move the cursor up twice to the "C" space.
  • Press <Ctrl+Enter> (N.B NOT <Enter>).  This should make the third chordmember.
  • This has created an "F" triad chord
  • Now change duration to quaver (eighth)
  • move the cursor up to the "E" space
  • Press <Ctrl+Enter> (N.B NOT <Enter>).  This should make the fourth chordmember.  If it does not then you have a stem direction set and the stem direction for the existing crotchet chord conflicts with the stem direction for the quaver.
  • See the stem of the crotchet chord has changed to the down direction and the stem direction for the "E" is upward.
  • move the cursor down to the "D" line and press <ENTER> (NOT <Ctrl+Enter>)
  • Now you have a note beside the chord.
  • Select the chord AND the "D" beside it and press <Ctrl+B> - this will beam the 2 quavers (eighths)***
  • Position the cursor to the right of the chord (between the chord and the "D") and move it down to the "C" below the staff
  • Change the duration to a minim (half)
  • Press <Ctrl+Enter>  Note that nothing happens because you cannot have more than 2 durations in a chord

** You will notice I said to move the cursor UP, not left or right.  To create a chordmember the cursor must be positioned immediately to the right of the existing note/chord in the <edit> horizontal vertical plane.

*** Try making 2 chords with all quaver members BUT with opposite stem directions.  I.E. make a chord with down stem G and up stem B, now make a new chord with down stem A and up stem C, Highlight both chords and press <Ctrl+B> to beam them - what happens?

Restchords:
  • Move the cursor to the right of the "D"
  • Change duration to crotchet (quarter)
  • Press <Space> to create a crotchet rest
  • Change duration to quaver (eighth)
  • Without moving the cursor press <Ctrl+Enter> to create a chordmember.  Nothing happens.  This is because the note is SHORTER than the rest
  • Change duration back to crotchet (quarter)
  • Without moving the cursor press <Ctrl+Enter> to create a chordmember.  Now a crotchet appears - you've created a restchord!
  • Change duration to minim (half)
  • Move the cursor up to the "F" space and press <Ctrl+Enter>.
  • Again, nothing happens.  You cannot have more than 2 durations in a chord/restchord

Stem directions:
  • Move the cursor to the right of everything you've just done
  • Set the duration to quaver (eighth)
  • Set the stem direction to UP (press <Shift+UpArrow>)
  • Position the cursor on, say, the "G" line and press <Enter>
  • Set the stem direction to DOWN (press <Shift+DownArrow>)
  • Position the cursor on the "B" line and press <Ctrl+Enter>
  • Nothing happens!  You cannot have opposing stem directions
  • Experiment with restchords and stem directions - remember, rests can have a stem direction.

I know this is very long, and possibly confusing.  I apologise for that, but hopefully it helps.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: 3 Notes in a layered staff

Reply #8 –
Thank you Lawrie for such a very comprehensive explanation, hopefully I can learn step by step, because actually I just self study all this stuff. I am not young anymore, I am 67 immigrated from Indonesia at the age of 60,  but I need to always learn and learn, and I learn also making database and website from YouTube, and I have done 1, maybe you can visit: https://franksitumorang.com/

Again thanks to all of you, please bear with me I will still be asking what I do not know in Noteworthy, because I tried to help people to learn singing by listening to my YouTube channel to hear each voice. https://youtu.be/aYEKzKKwJ4o

Frank

Re: 3 Notes in a layered staff

Reply #9 –
Hi Frank,
I hope what I shared helps.  In the end though, just play around with it and things will tend to fall into place as you get used to it.

I just had a quick look at the YouTube clip and noticed a few things.  I hope you don't mind a little critique.
Firstly, using separate, layered staves is exactly right for this kind of application (in my opinion), so good choice!
Now:
  • bar 5 (Sop) the tie should be upwards.
  • bar 5 (Ten and Bass) ties should be replaced with slurs.
  • bar 9 (Sop) tie should be upward.
  • bar 9 (Alto) tie should be replaced with a downward slur.
  • bar 9 (Ten and bass) there seems to be some stem direction confusion.  I think the upper (Ten) crotchets should be stem UP with upward slur  and the lower minim (Bass) should be stem down (keep the downward slur)
  • bar 12 (Ten) the rests are a little low and collide with the bass layer.
  • bar 17 (Sop) the tie should be upward
  • bar 17 (Sop) a beat too long in the total duration (dotted minim should be just a minim)
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: 3 Notes in a layered staff

Reply #10 –
Thank you Lawrie, I really appreciate your response, I will make correction and replace my video YouTube with the correct one as per your comments.

Thank you,

Frank