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Staff Spacing Problem

I’ve encountered a problem with staff spacing that I’ve not seen before.

The attached score has an introduction (without lyrics) that needs much less inter-staff spacing than measures which have lyrics.

I was able to adjust the spacing so the printout looks acceptable, but in the edit mode it’s impossible to read. I came up with a workaround of temporarily adding extra spacing while editing, then removing the extra spacing before printing. But it’s incredibly awkward.

Is there a way in NWC to make the spacing look acceptable in both editing and printing modes without resorting to workarounds? Or is this just a limitation we have to accept in a non-WYSIWYG application?

Re: Staff Spacing Problem

Reply #1 –
Well, our dear Rick had a way of doing this when lyrics were involved. But even when I found his method, I could not make it work for me.

So here is my solution - many people do not like the way I manipulate positions outside of NoteWorthy and then paste them back, But it works for me.  If you like the result, then use it  -  If you don't like the method, then someone else may have another solution for you.
Rich.

Re: Staff Spacing Problem

Reply #2 –
Here is my attempt - I think it "simply" follows the principle "keep it simple"  :)

The idea is to "repair" (with Boundary Changes) just the parts without lyrics. Is the result roughly what you want?

As a side note, I'd suggest to use slur markers to "flatten" the long slurs - I have added a few in m.3 and 5 of the upper staff.

H.M.

Re: Staff Spacing Problem

Reply #3 –
Dear Cyber_Hymnal,

I never used boundary offset myself before, - just like Richard, I always created several staves where I collapsed the bars when I wanted to change the boundaries - but the combination of staff properties and Boundary Objects seems perfect for getting a good editing view and a good print view.

Just use the staff properties for a good editing view (choose appropriate upper and lower boundaries) and use the boundary offsets in the Boundary Object to adjust the print layout (like you already did yourself in measure 6).

See example - with "staff boundaries" for the editing and additional boundary offsets (at the beginning of measure 1) to get an adapted print view.

Bart

Re: Staff Spacing Problem

Reply #4 –
Hmmueller’s suggestions were spot on! Thanks for taking the time to look at this.

Re: Staff Spacing Problem

Reply #5 –
Bart had (and proved) the same idea as I, at almost exactly the same time instant. And I must say that his rule

Use
  • the staff properties for a good editing view
  • Boundary objects to adjust the print layout

is very easy to remember and apply.

Also, I think, one should make use of Boundary objects only in the staff with lyrics: This also keeps the modifications managable.

Then, the Boundary object controlling the largest distance may be a "Reset" Boundary. This somehow contradicts Bart's rule, as now a change of the staff size (purportedly to be used only for editing) also controls the print layout. However, as this is the default behaviour we are all used to, it might actually be "more expected".

Finally, looking at the small arrows of the Boundary object is actually helpful, I have found: Adding a hypothetical horizontal line to them helps to understand the result somewhat better. Unfortunately, the arrow tips are too small, in my opinion and for my aging eyes - but so it goes.

H.M.
 

Re: Staff Spacing Problem

Reply #6 –
Quote from: hmmueller –
As a side note, I'd suggest to use slur markers to "flatten" the long slurs - I have added a few in m.3 and 5 of the upper staff.
While the slur markers do help with the shape of the slurs, they can only do so much. I've added SlurCubic.ms objects to my example (attached), They use cubic Bezier curves, and can be adjusted more subtlely than the standard curves of the native NWC slur. In practice if you want to use this approach, you will generally want to add a "real" slur to the score, for the proper playback and lyric effects, but then hide it with a single "Visible=never" slur marker at the start of the slur.

Re: Staff Spacing Problem

Reply #7 –
I have a song that starts with the chorus, one lyric line, followed by the verses, 2 lyric lines.
When I set a new boundary offset at the beginning and a boundary reset before the start of the verses, as suggested,
it looks fine in editing mode, but in print preview the lyric line of the chorus is moved up and overlaps with the staff lines.
See attachments.
Always look on the bright side of life!

Re: Staff Spacing Problem

Reply #8 –
You could put the lyrics for the chorus on the 2nd verse line, but that would affect the note chase.

You could also do the boundary change on the top of the staff instead of the bottom.  This would still bring the staves closer, but leave the lyric offset untouched.  Also the note chase would work better.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Staff Spacing Problem

Reply #9 –
A solution is to put the single-line chorus lyrics into the second verse.

The reason for this behavior is apparently that the position of the lyrics is computed as follows:
- First, the height of the complete lyrics is computed - it is "Line Count" times "Line Height"; in your case, "2 Lyrics lines" times "14 pt line height".
- The first line of the lyrics is then written at the corresponding height above the lower boundary of the staff; if that boundary is raised by a Boundary object, all the lyrics lines are also raised.

Morale: It seems that one must "think the lyrics lines bottom up", i.e., not the first line has a position defined by various boundaries, but the last one. The "lyrics line grid" is not fixed at the upper (first) line, but "jumps up and down" according to the boundaries. And therefore, one must place text parts in this "jumping grid" at the right places to get the desired effect.

Edit: Lawrie, I think, found the right rule: On staffs with lyrics lines, always only change the upper boundary.
I have attached a version with two Boundary objects right at the beginning that does that. Is this ok?

H.M.

Re: Staff Spacing Problem

Reply #10 –
I knew about the solution to set the chorus lyrics on the 2nd line, but was not happy with that.
Changing the upper boundary only does the trick.
Thanks Lawrie and Harald!
Always look on the bright side of life!

Re: Staff Spacing Problem

Reply #11 –
Although this feature request will likely fall on deaf ears, I have long wanted to have the ability to change the lyric offset via a boundary change command. To me this would be a great addition and would solve all manner of lyric position issues.