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Topic: connecting 8th notes, stems up and down on the same staff (Read 12410 times) previous topic - next topic

connecting 8th notes, stems up and down on the same staff

I have some piano music which has 2 voices, both on the treble clef.  The upper voice has stems up and the lower voice, stems down.  Since they are 8th notes, when I click the flag icon to connect them all, it only connects the top voice notes and leaves the bottom notes as individual 8th notes.  They are not differing rhythms....the top and bottom are paired up note for note.  I just can't get the flags to connect on both voices.  I don't want them on a single stem.

Re: connecting 8th notes, stems up and down on the same staff

Reply #1 –
You have to use layering to achieve that.
Put one voice of one staff, the second voice on another staff (ie stem up on one , stem down on another) and then layer them.
To layer, you need to select layering in the page set up / contents tab and then in the properties for the upper staff, select "layer with next staff" from the visual tab.

Having done that, you will probably need to select "layering in edit mode" from the view menu (or depress the layering icon)

 
Rich.

Re: connecting 8th notes, stems up and down on the same staff

Reply #2 –
This occurs starting in measure 52.....do I add another treble clef (a 3rd staff) below the grand staff.....then copy all 51 measures onto it to put it in line with the "real" treble clef?  then how do I select measures 53 - 60 on only the these two trebles simultaneously to make them merge?

Re: connecting 8th notes, stems up and down on the same staff

Reply #3 –
You have to do it for the whole staff. IF you are doing this for the first time ever, it is probably easier to do it once you have finished all of the RH staff of the Grand staff.  It is then easy to copy the whole staff and then just change the measures that need changing.
The RH layer should be directly below the RH staff of the Grand staff, NOT below the LH staff.

Once you get used to layering, you may possibly use other methods to construct the RH layer staff such as building the layer with invisible whole rests until you reach the measure that needs changing. If you do use this method, you will need to remember to duplicate other items such as key/clef/time sig/dynamics changes on the Layered staff.
Rich.

Re: connecting 8th notes, stems up and down on the same staff

Reply #4 –
If your music is at present:

Treble
Bass

then you have to set it up:

Treble (for stem up) - I would call this S (for soprano), for which you must select: "Layer with next staff"
and create the new staff directly below S (for stem down) - I would call this A (for Alto)
Bass

For A:  From the start, copy everything which is the same for  S and A into A then enter the down stem measures of A .... and repeat this procedure if there are more occurrences.

Alternatively: For all the measures where S and A have the same notes,
add hidden full measure rests in A.
After the last (or only) occurence where S  and A play different notes and if there are no repeats involved,
you can stop entry of data for A, provided the properties for this staff are set to: Ending bar: Open

Re: connecting 8th notes, stems up and down on the same staff

Reply #5 –
(Note: editorial comment follows)

I agree with the above technical description and solution to this problem... and I have to say that this is one of my biggest "pet peeves" with NWC (aside from the oft-discussed "slur problem"). I use NWC to create digital scores for our choir (either to remove the piano part, or to make PDF scores for our users who have tablets), and it's common for the soprano/alto and tenor/bass staves to be split this way. When I am previewing the printed score before starting a project, I wince whenever I see multiple voice beamed notes.

I am hopeful that eventually NWC can implement a fix for this. Personally I don't understand why beaming can't be applied automatically to each set of layered notes, instead of one of them (you can beam the upper or lower set by changing the flag direction). I can't think of any circumstances when I would want only one set of such  notes to be beamed; can anyone else?

Re: connecting 8th notes, stems up and down on the same staff

Reply #6 –
Quote from: Mike Shawaluk –
Personally I don't understand why beaming can't be applied automatically to each set of layered notes, instead of one of them

I think you mean both directions on a bi-directional chord rather than each set of layered notes. It can do each set of layered notes.

Quote from: Mike Shawaluk –
(you can beam the upper or lower set by changing the flag direction).

Not always ! 
You try getting this to have the beam pointing up rather  rather than down.

Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.51,Single)
|Chord|Dur:16th|Pos:-8|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First|Dur2:8th|Pos2:-4
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-4|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End


Quote from: Mike Shawaluk –
I am hopeful that eventually NWC can implement a fix for this.

Well, I suspect that layering is the fix you talk about and that Noteworthy do not consider that it needs fixing. (Alas !)

Rich.

Re: connecting 8th notes, stems up and down on the same staff

Reply #7 –
I agree that there's a problem. This won't beam at all unless you layer it:

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.51,Single)
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Down|Dur2:8th|Pos2:1
|RestChord|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:8th|Pos2:-2
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:-3|Opts:Stem=Down|Dur2:8th|Pos2:1
|RestChord|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:8th|Pos2:-4
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

That said, I don't find any difficulty in layering when needed. It's actually an intuitive method of handling two independent voices on the same staff - or so it seems to me.

Re: connecting 8th notes, stems up and down on the same staff

Reply #8 –
Quote from: William Ashworth –
This won't beam at all unless you layer it:
Of course it will. It won't beam the way you want it to beam.
Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.51,Single)
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First|Dur2:8th|Pos2:1
|RestChord|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:8th|Pos2:-2
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:-3|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End|Dur2:8th|Pos2:1
|RestChord|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:8th|Pos2:-4
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
Registered user since 1996

Re: connecting 8th notes, stems up and down on the same staff

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Richard Woodroffe –

Well, I suspect that layering is the fix you talk about and that Noteworthy do not consider that it needs fixing. (Alas !)


(My editorial comment continues)

To me, layering isn't a "fix" here, it's a workaround. I don't mind using layers for more sophisticated things (like lyrics above & below the staff), but it seems downright annoying to have to create a separate layer when I have one or two measures in an entire score with beamed notes in both directions. I have also resorted to using layers to handle stem-side slurs that are too far from the note heads (by shortening the stems on the layered staff). It just seems to me that there are a number of shortcomings in NWC where the solution is "use layers".

Another way to put this for the beaming issue: if I have to use layers to solve this, then the whole ability of having built-in layered notes on a single staff seems moot.  I'd rather not go off on a rant here, because for the most part I am happy with NWC overall, but as I've mentioned in a few other posts, I find myself increasingly using "that other program" to get around these (and other) NWC shortcomings, and I would really rather not feel the need to resort to that.

Thanks for listening.

Re: connecting 8th notes, stems up and down on the same staff

Reply #10 –
Quote from: William Ashworth –
... I don't find any difficulty in layering when needed. It's actually an intuitive method of handling two independent voices on the same staff - or so it seems to me.

Layering solves the problem. Adding a new layered staff and padding it out with hidden rests or copied bars until you reach the spot where you need the workaround is only a few keystrokes.  

The magic of Noteworthy is the fairly easy workarounds and whoever came up with the idea of layered staffs was a genius.   I don't mind future enhancements to beaming but  slurs and n-tuplets are much higher priorities because their workarounds that are a little more of a challenge.

Re: connecting 8th notes, stems up and down on the same staff

Reply #12 –
Perhaps a layering "HowTo" is in order.  I can well see how new users might be put off without an easy to understand layering tutorial, with lots of pictures, to help them get to grips with it.

I would volunteer myself but time is at somewhat of a premium at the moment.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: connecting 8th notes, stems up and down on the same staff

Reply #13 –
Quote from: Rick G. –
Of course it will. It won't beam the way you want it to beam.

Hey, Rick - I call that stretching to make a point. And it still doesn't beam all the notes. Doesn't BEGIN to pass muster. Can we agree not to use examples that wouldn't appear in normal printed music?

Re: connecting 8th notes, stems up and down on the same staff

Reply #14 –
Quote from: William Ashworth –
Hey, Rick - I call that stretching to make a point.
That is within your rights here. No offense taken.

Quote from: William Ashworth –
And it still doesn't beam all the notes.
I never claimed that it did. I just provided it to counter your claim that the items would not beam "at all." I know that a beam cannot begin or end on a RestChord. It is a shortcoming of NWC that I have decried for many years.

Quote from: William Ashworth –
Can we agree not to use examples that wouldn't appear in normal printed music?
No, we can not. Such examples are useful to show underlying problems that can affect a user's abilty to create notation that does appear in normal printed music.
Registered user since 1996

Re: connecting 8th notes, stems up and down on the same staff

Reply #15 –
Quote from: Rick G. –
I agree. If you need n voices, do it on n layered staves.
I also agree. But the biggest time consumer I find with layering is, when I try to copy, say Soprano and Alto to separate layers, and the source has the stems for both in the same direction, and the notes are eighth notes or shorter, I have to manually adjust stem lengths to get the flags or beams to match. A lot of mouse clicks for each note being adjusted. Couldn't that be automated somehow?

Re: connecting 8th notes, stems up and down on the same staff

Reply #16 –
Quote from: fathafluff –
I have to manually adjust stem lengths to get the flags or beams to match.
I have never needed to match flags or beams. Can you post an example?
Registered user since 1996

Re: connecting 8th notes, stems up and down on the same staff

Reply #17 –
I'm not at a machine with Noteworthy, but... Consider two layered staves with G-clef (Soprano and Alto). Soprano singing an A (second space). Alto singing F (first space). Both notes are eighth notes, stem up. The normal stem length of 7 puts the A flag just off the top of the staff. The F flag is one space below that, so when layered, the A/F chord looks like a sixteenth note chord, because the flags do not line up. I have to change the stem length of the F to 9 so that the flags line up. I know some people write one voice stem up and the other stem down, so there would not be an issue, but most choral music shows the two notes as a chord, stem up.

Re: connecting 8th notes, stems up and down on the same staff

Reply #18 –
Quote from: fathafluff –
Consider two layered staves with G-clef (Soprano and Alto). Soprano singing an A (second space). Alto singing F (first space). Both notes are eighth notes, stem up.
2 methods. I usually use the method in measure 1 since it can use default stem lengths. I have a tool to automatically insert the mutes.
Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposer(2.51)
|SongInfo|Title:"SATB Template"|Copyright1:"Copyright © <Year> by <Name>"
|PgSetup|StaffSize:18|PageNumbers:1|BarNumbers:Plain
|AddStaff|Name:"Soprano"
|StaffProperties|EndingBar:Open (hidden)|WithNextStaff:Bracket,ConnectBars,Layer
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:C|Tonic:C
|TimeSig|Signature:2/4
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Note|Dur:Whole,Grace|Pos:-3x^|Opts:Muted|Visibility:Never
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:-3,-1
|Note|Dur:Whole,Grace|Pos:-3x^|Opts:Muted|Visibility:Never
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:-3,-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:Whole,Grace|Pos:-3x^|Opts:Muted|Visibility:Never
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:-3,-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:StemLength=0
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,StemLength=0,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,StemLength=0,Beam=End
|Bar
|AddStaff|Name:"Alto"
|StaffProperties|EndingBar:Open (hidden)|WithNextStaff:Bracket,ConnectBars
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:C|Tonic:C
|TimeSig|Signature:2/4
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-3|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-3|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-3|Visibility:Never
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-3|Opts:StemLength=9
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-3|Opts:Stem=Up,StemLength=9,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-3|Opts:Stem=Up,StemLength=9,Beam=End
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposer-End
Registered user since 1996

Re: connecting 8th notes, stems up and down on the same staff

Reply #19 –
You might want to check an earlier thread.
Since 1998

Re: connecting 8th notes, stems up and down on the same staff

Reply #20 –
Quote from: fathafluff –
... ...I know some people write one voice stem up and the other stem down, so there would not be an issue, but most choral music shows the two notes as a chord, stem up.

Why not enter the notes as chords on one staff and then create separate voices with Chord Splitter if needed? 

I don't recall when/if I used Chord Splitter from the Scriptorium Helpful Files (see http://nwc-scriptorium.org/helpful.html) but from its description it ought to work.

Re: connecting 8th notes, stems up and down on the same staff

Reply #21 –
Quote from: David Palmquist –
I don't recall when/if I used Chord Splitter ... but from its description it ought to work.
Chord Splitter is a DOS executable from the last millennium. It works on MIDI files.

Quote from: David Palmquist –
Why not enter the notes as chords on one staff and then create separate voices with Chord Splitter if needed?
Parts(adp) from the NWC2 User Tool Starter Kit works well for this. Due to some changes to NWC, the full help info no longer displays, so I have attached it.
Registered user since 1996

Re: connecting 8th notes, stems up and down on the same staff

Reply #22 –
Quote from: Rick G. –
Parts(adp) from the NWC2 User Tool Starter Kit works well for this.

It does work well, but it does not retain the original lengths of stem and so in this case, fathafluff  would still need to alter the lengths of stem so that two layered eighth notes do not appear to be a sixteenth note.

Edit - Thinking further about it, even if it did retain the stem lengths, that would not achieve what would be necessary in this instance. One of the notes from the "split chord" would need to have a length from the upper notehead to the tail and the other from the lower notehead to the tail.
Rich.

Re: connecting 8th notes, stems up and down on the same staff

Reply #23 –
Quote from: Richard Woodroffe –
...it does not retain the original lengths of stem ... fathafluff  would still need to alter the lengths of stem so that two layered eighth notes do not appear to be a sixteenth note.  

My idea overcomes that, Richard.  
Quote
"Why not enter the notes as chords on one staff and then create separate voices with Chord Splitter (edit: user tool "Parts") if needed? "
When you want the combined staff, you print the first staff.  If you want separate parts, you copy the staff contents to two new staffs.  Run Parts (option Top) on one of the new staffs,and run it again on the other staff, choosing Bottom.  The entire copying and splitting process took me about 10 seconds when I tested it just now.

Re: connecting 8th notes, stems up and down on the same staff

Reply #25 –
Quote from: Rick G. –
No, it does not.

I agree.

One of the prime reasons that layering was invented was enable Noteworthy to display musical script correctly where there were multiple voices on a single staff.  It stands to reason then, that your "combined" staff will/could have visual inaccuracies that you don't want when printing out, and that you are trying to overcome by using layering.

Anyway, I 'm not sure of the value of :

On the one hand to say that you should use layering to fix multi voiced staff problems and on the other, you should use a multi voiced staff to fix layering problems.   Kinda goes round in a circle don't you think?


Rich.

Re: connecting 8th notes, stems up and down on the same staff

Reply #26 –
Richard, if this
Quote
It stands to reason then, that your "combined" staff will/could have visual inaccuracies that you don't want when printing out, and that you are trying to overcome by using layering.
refers to my suggestion, then I guess I didn't make it clear I was addressing the situation described by Fathafluff:
Quote
I know some people write one voice stem up and the other stem down, so there would not be an issue, but most choral music shows the two notes as a chord, stem up.
I'm not suggesting combining the three staffs.  If he wants both voices to be stem up, he can make two-note chords in his primary staff.  If for any reason he needs separate parts, then he can quickly create those secondary staffs as well.  I didn't suggest layering.
 

Re: connecting 8th notes, stems up and down on the same staff

Reply #27 –
The issue descibed in the top post is the same as in measures 186-187 of the "Bassoons" staff of the sample file: Consecration.nwc

To fix it, I did this:

Check 'Allow Layering' on the Contents tab in Page Setup.
Clone the "Bassoons" staff.
Layer the "Bassoons" staff with the cloned staff.
Mute everything on the cloned staff up to measure 186.
Mute everything on the cloned staff after measure 187.
Run Parts:retain top on measures 186-187 of the "Bassoons" staff.
Run Parts:retain bottom on measures 186-187 of the cloned staff.
Fix the stem and slur directions.
Fix the beaming on the cloned staff.

Pictures attached. This took less than 2 minutes to do and an hour to explain.
I agree that NWC would be improved if it beamed more agressively.
Registered user since 1996