NoteWorthy under new management?

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NoteWorthy under new management?

2005-12-17 11:33 am

Well, it may as well be, for the change of direction the NWC Corporation has taken of late.

NoteWorthy used to be, IMHO, the music notation equivalent of Linux - a pretty good piece of shareware, a bit buggy, but with a very nice user interface (particularly for note-entry). Now, sadly, The Management have gone firmly down the commercial route, and started to try and make us pay for "enhancements" that are really bug-fixes.

For those who are new or prospective users and haven't fallen into any of these gaping holes yet, let me point out a couple. NW has always had some strange and basic misunderstandings regarding the treatment of accidentals. You can easily try the simplest one yourself (I'm using 1.75b). Create a new score with a single treble clef, no key-signature; input a crotchet (US: quarter-note) Csharp just above middle C, and a second C (with no accidental) an octave higher. Save and play it back. What plays? Csharp, Cnatural a major 7th higher? NAAAAHH! Two Csharps an octave apart! If you WANT the higher C to be natural you need to explicitly make it natural. Now, if you ever get a chance to look at any Handel mss you'll see that HE makes this kind of "mistake" frequently - but this WAS 300 years or so ago before the rules on accidentals settled down...

Here's a second howler. Start with a new blank stave and make it 4/4. Input a semibreve (US: whole-note) Gsharp, tied into the next bar. In bar two, input another semibreve G, without an accidental (it shouldn't need one, since it's tied from bar 1). Bar three, a semibreve A; bar four, a semibreve rest. Play it back. You'll hear two bars-worth of Gsharp, then a nasty scrunch, since the Gsharp "sticks on" and plays against the A; both notes finally cease with the bar 4 rest. The kludge-around this time is to explicitly make the second G a Gsharp...I note with amusement that one of the "features" touted as being "new in release 2" is "Automatic handling of accidentals for tied notes across bar lines". Great! They're finally fixing this bug! Sadly, to get this fix I'll have to pay money for it; I was recently told "I can confirm that your PDSL [the UK distributor] purchase does not qualify you for participation in the current NWC2 preview release...Even if you are enabled into the NWC2 beta program, it is clear that your version 1.75 CD purchase does not currently qualify you for a free upgrade to NWC2 when it is released...There will, however, be upgrade pricing for NWC2 after it is released."

I could go on and on...there are many problems and restrictions associated with the input of two or more independent parts on one staff (for example, when a single instrument plays two or more "lines" - common in lute and keyboard music). You cannot always "chord" notes and rests of differing lengths together in the way you'd expect, and after years of experience I still sometimes have to just try and see what NW will "let me get away with" first. The workarounds here can get quite ugly; either you can split the longer notes into tied shorter ones, which can look VERY messy in an organ score, or you use Layering and type the parts into two or more staves...but again this looks strange if the "multiple parts" come and go, and you have to be VERY careful that you don't miss copying any accidentals into the new staves or you'll end up with more "false relations" than you bargained for...

The bottom line is this. These kinds of (let's be charitable) "quirks" are acceptable in freeware and shareware, but NOT in the Profit-Is-All marketplace which NoteWorthy now appear to be entering. New or prospective users, weigh up your options carefully; there are plenty of other heavyweight notation packages out there, and while their note-entry interfaces may NEVER be as good as NW's, at least they'll have been properly tested.

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #1 – 2005-12-17 12:56 pm

G'day John.
no disrespect or insult intended, but that is about the biggest case of sour grapes I've ever seen.

Just to remind you, NWC2 is not even in beta at this stage. It is in a pre-beta state that is heavily dependent on user input for, at this point, knocking of the big lumpy bits. It hasn't even gotten close to the polishing stage!

You mention commercial products that are out there - yeah, sure, at 10+ times the price.

I'm only a relative newcomer (since 2002) but in the histories I've read to date, NWC has never been free, it has always been marketed as shareware. If I am wrong here, please feel free to correct me. However, assuming I am right, then even in the shareware world you don't get major revision updates for free!

As for the Profit-Is-All marketplace, it's only 39 bucks (US) - 15 for the upgrade you're whingeing about - pay the money. for Pete's sake!

If NWC were really about profit is all, there'd be no upgrade path, you'd be renting the damn thing like the way Microsoft are heading towards doing - you don't get any cut price upgrades out of them anymore!

Now please remember, I can't talk for NWC, I ain't one of 'em, I'm just a customer like you, but I have to pay much more than you 'cos in the UK you have a much better exchange rate than we do here in Oz, and I'd happily pay twice as much!

/soap box

Lawrie

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #2 – 2005-12-17 02:11 pm

(1) I was taught that an accidental applies in any octave, in the same measure. Maybe that's not according to the book, but it was in the book I used.

(2) NWC (1 or 2) does not automatically insert measure bars. When a note is placed, the program does not predict in advance where a note that will tie across a bar might split. Since the user knows, NWC1 expects that the user will supply the information in the form of accidentals. It seems that sufficiently many users don't know in advance, that NWC2 added what amounts to a second-guessing feature.

(3) NWC has ALWAYS been a commercial program. It was NEVER open-source or free, nor was it maintained by an amorphous and changing network of users. I don't understand what you mean by the observation that NWC has taken the commercial route. That's like saying the Pope is too Catholic.

(4) I invite you to drop in to one of the user forums for any sort of Linux-based program. See how many users cannot even get the applications to run. The bugs are often profound. This applies as well to originally-Linux programs ported to Windows. One free drawing program, Linux ported to Windows, has the problem that many (not all) users cannot open a file from within the program! It hangs without error report, so nobody knows what the problem is. Nothing has been done about that for a year, since the developers (who do not see the problem) do not respond. But then again, it's free.

I have another program, from a major graphic software vendor, that has had bugs ever since release. One bug is that a certain menu item does not correspond to any actual program functionality. Another is that one of the image formats does not comply with standards. The bugs were never fixed, because they were in the $100 (light) version of a product that licenses for $600 in the non-light version.

(5) If you review the historical terms of license, you will see that NWC always implied that some day there might be a version 2, and that the license for version 1 would not extend to 2.

(6) Ask Apple Mac users whether they thought that upgrades from OS-X through a feline zoo, none of which were free, were fine and wonderful.

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #3 – 2005-12-17 05:51 pm

> (1) I was taught that an accidental applies in any octave, in the same measure. Maybe that's not according to the book, but it was in the book I used.

Wrong! Go sue your teacher.

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #4 – 2005-12-17 08:11 pm

Whatever you say, I find it a great program for a very low price.
Other management? No way.

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #5 – 2005-12-17 10:24 pm

These guys can't possibly be making excessive profits - I've been using their product daily for ten years for a total investment of $40 US, with lots of free upgrades that were genuine improvements. They want another $15 to pay for their R&D time? It's a bargain. How do they eat?

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #6 – 2005-12-17 10:46 pm

Ah well, I doubt you'll be bothered by me again anyway, since today I decided that if I was being forced to abandon the shareware route, I might as well go the whole hog and shell out for a real, production-strength sequencer - Sibelius 4. A pity that I'll need to spend weeks converting many years' worth of NW files to Sibelius, but at least then I'll be moving forward with a reliable base. Yes, Sibelius 4 does cost many times more than USD 15; it was always a matter of principle for me.

I wish you all the best of luck in debugging your hobby-ware.

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #7 – 2005-12-18 12:51 am

Csharp, Cnatural a major 7th higher?
This is a diminished octave, not a major 7th.
A major 7th would be D flat to C, which is how the interval should be notated in the first place.
If you insist on using C sharp to C natural, the natural MUST be included.
On the other hand, if the interval is an actual octave, it should be notated C sharp to C sharp - the sharp MUST be included.

And I gotta say, this is way more than "hobby-ware."
I actually earn a living with this program.

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #8 – 2005-12-18 01:18 am

What exrtraordinary things "principles" can turn out to be. John, I sincerely hope your principles give you a warm glow after you've spent hundreds of quids and hundreds of hours converting your NWC files via MIDI to *.sib!! Good luck to you. I hope you don't have too many repeats or dynamics or lyrics or multiple voices per stave to worry about

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #9 – 2005-12-18 02:39 am

Yup! Another Pommy Autoerogenist!

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #10 – 2005-12-18 02:57 am

Merry Christmas, John,

I recall a lot of discussion during the private betatest of version 2 about how to handle accidentals in the situation you describe. Whether it is you or NWC who is correct may not be certain (and I don't really care, I'm not out to win or lose the argument). If memory serves, Eric at NWC decided to use a particular reference book as the basis for the various presentation decisions he had to make.

I can understand your frustration over not being able to upgrade; it's really a shame. I have to admit I was surprised when your first message wrote about buying from PDSL. I was under the impression since I first bought the program around 10 years ago that it was impossible to buy through a retailer. I don't recall if you were upset about the $15 upgrade cost, or that you might have to spend $39 on top of that to buy the CD ROM when you already have the program. If the latter, I sympathize, but if it's the former, you're just being unreasonable.

You've been unhappy about NWC and its upgrade policy at least since you wrote message https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=5287.

Are there quirks? Sure. I use a variety of software, and each has its limitations. Even the pricey stuff. I can't help but appreciate that NWC2 (the betatest version) does most of the things I need to print scores and parts, and costs very little. Here's today's online price comparisons:

NWC, US$39 + $15 for the upgrade (=CDN $62.65)
Sibelius 4 for Mac/Windows £595 (=CDN $1,223.77) (http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/buy/main.pl?com=main)

I won't try to persuade you to give NWC another try, because you probably will only run into other irritations that you would barely notice if you weren't already unhappy.

I hope that you will truly enjoy working with Sibelius.

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #11 – 2005-12-18 06:27 am

From way beyond his Greek grave, Aesopus sends a huge grin.
Meaning: I agree with Lawrie in reply 1.
Rob.

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #12 – 2005-12-18 12:29 pm

One last parting shot (promise!)

Anita - major 7th v diminshed octave - you're right on the strict nomenclature, I played jazz for too many years before studying for my DipMus to care too much what you called what is in reality the same interval. However you're certainly wrong that an accidental applies in any octave in the same bar (perhaps this is a particularly American "convention"). I remember VERY clearly that I'd used NW to printout one of my answers for my last theory paper, and I'd input Csharp - Csharp so as to be unambiguous. However, the NW printout had "helpfully" removed the second sharp on the grounds that it was superfluous, I didn't spot its error, and lost my only mark when the prof (who had decades of teaching and, I suspect, a string of fancier letters behind him than either of the two of us) pounced on the diminished octave.

The telling fact is that I reported this bug to NW support some years ago, and they acknowledged that it was indeed an error. Since I have been barred from trying out version 2 unless I pay money first, I cannot say whether it has been fixed yet.

One Aussie seems not to understand principles (perhaps his heritage is showing?) The principle at stake here, and I worked in software for over 20 years, is that you DON'T CHARGE FOR BUG-FIXES. Not unless your name is Bill.

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #13 – 2005-12-18 02:07 pm

G'day John,
tsk, tsk - what a cheap shot... for interest, my father was Irish, my mother half German and Half English - I myself am all Aussie (1st generation on one side, second generation on the other) so sadly I cannot lay claim to the illustrious heritage you allude to. Might I add, England transported some of her finest people. Perhaps you could read some real history some time.

As for principles I understand them very well, especially one about cutting one's nose off to spite one's face...

Now, I've done a bit of reading - nowhere has NWC2 been touted as a "bug fix" version. Certainly there are issues that have been addressed but as I have seen bug fix versions of v1.75 released since the pre-beta availability of NWC2 I simply don't see the relevance.

For all of that, I still don't understand why you're getting so hot under the collar about some software that hasn't even been released yet. And again, I do understand about principles, and I respect your opinion in this matter though I think you are just plain wrong in your attitude.

I repeat, the pre-beta release of NWC2 is not a bug fix. It is definitely a new version with many and significant new features. Your argument is fundamentally flawed.

Nevertheless, I wish you well with your new toy, I hope it serves you as well and as long as NWC clearly has.

Please accept my wishes for a very merry Christmas and a very happy and prosperous new year for yourself and your family.

Lawrie

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #14 – 2005-12-18 08:24 pm

An instructor took a group of us outside to the back wall of the building. The building was painted a very light shade of blue.

However, there was one area that wasn't painted and it showed the dark gray of the cinder block.

He then mentioned that some people will look at the entire wall and marvel at the beautiful color ... and others that will focus on the dot.

"Focus on the dot"

The world is an imperfect place, but if we focus on the dot, we choose to be miserable and there are lots of dots all over even though sometimes you have to work hard to find them....

... but they can be found, especially if you WANT to find them.

His advice .... "don't focus on the dot but enjoy the bigger picture".

The bigger picture to me is that NWC is cheap and I get to do stuff that helps me with various projects and activities. The dot is some of the limitations, but at $40 .... who can ask for anything more.

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #15 – 2005-12-18 08:32 pm

major 7th v diminshed[sic] octave ... is in reality the same interval. NOT!

I'd input Csharp - Csharp so as to be unambiguous.
That's the whole point, isn't it, to make perfectly clear the notes which are to be played? If there is an accidental on a note and then none on a note an octave away, then the reader doesn't know with certainty whether the accidental was omitted intentionally or, umm, accidentally. It's better to include it either way so as to avoid confusion.
...the notes of the same pitch in different octaves are considered separately.
[Tom Gerou and Linda Lusk, etc.]

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #16 – 2005-12-18 10:54 pm

From the online manual for Lilypond, a text-based Linux music program:
[Begin quotation]
octavation:
Whether the accidental changes all octaves or only the current octave. Valid choices are

same-octave:
This is the default algorithm. Accidentals are typeset if the note changes the accidental of that note in that octave. Accidentals lasts to the end of the measure and then as many measures as specified in the value. I.e. 1 means to the end of next measure, -1 means to the end of previous measure (that is: no duration at all), etc. #t means forever.
any-octave:
Accidentals are typeset if the note is different from the previous note on the same pitch in any octave. The value has same meaning as in same-octave.
[End quotation]

From that, I infer that the standard rule would not apply an accidental to a different octave, but that applying it to all octaves occurs frequently enough to be a choice.

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #17 – 2005-12-19 11:27 am

Sorry, I DID say the previous mail was my last, but I just wanted to thank Anita for confirming that NW's playback of Csharp - C as Csharp - Csharp IS a glaring error, since "...the notes of the same pitch in different octaves are considered separately". And with this and various other glaring errors abounding in 1.75b (I see that no-one leapt to the defence of NW on my "stuck-note" scenario, or the poor treatment of multiple parts in a staff) why the heck is NW mucking about with frippery like the shapes of note-heads?!

Merry Christmas!

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #18 – 2005-12-19 03:07 pm

Both, the C-C# and the stuck note, are errors, if you like. But neither are Problems. And you have no idea how much stem length and noteheads mean to many of the NWC-users.

You have no way of convincing me that NWC is a bad product. I have no way of convincing you that NWC is a good product. But we do have the 'Heartfelt thanks' thread, and that is enough for me.
Have a nice life,
Rob.

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #19 – 2005-12-19 05:30 pm

I am rather late coming into this discussion, but I feel I want to add my bit.
I got into Noteworthy by accident; a friend who is a Local Preacher asked me whether there was any way he could use his computerr to write out simple hymns and tunes. I knew nothing about Notation programs and I am very much an amateur in music, but from searching the net, I downloaded more than 10 trial versions of various programs, some quite cheap and some prohibitively expensive.
Noteworthy Composer stood out from the rest by reason of its versatility, its ease of use, the quality of its printed score and not without importance, its price.
I downloaded the program and validated it on line for John, but also got a CD from the US for myself. My only grouse was that our UK Customs saw fit to whack a hefty duty on it and then the Post Office charged me their own whack for collecting that duty before I coild have the package.
It has been a source of a great deal of pleasure to me despite the frustrations seemingly inevitable in any computer program used by amateurs.
As for Sibelius, whilst it might be the choice of the professionals, it took me ages before I could insert a single note in the trial package - far too complex! And with a price to match.
I have never regretted my modest expenditure and my free upgrades.

Tony

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #20 – 2005-12-19 06:51 pm

To each one's own. I see the merits of John's argument, but it seems that his main concern is sequencing. Sibelius, at many times the price, is a fine program with more features (hence the price), and I am sure he will be happy there. But note-head styles and stem lengths are very important, and are valuable features of NWC2. Before there was NWC2, I edited them graphically in a program such as Illustrator. Now, I don't have to do that.

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #21 – 2005-12-20 09:04 am

I also paid the extra customs and handling charges for UK mail.
John Hinsley, in his bitterness, appears to have forgotten that fact. That means people like myself would have paid much more than his original purchase price. I didn't complain about this because i felt the program was well worth it and offered excellent value for money.
Yes, Ok, so people in the US maybe got it cheaper - So what?

The disparaging comments posted regarding Noteworthy Composer are way over the top!
Noteworthy Composer is a very functional quality product with superb back up and support as you can see from this very forum.

Merry Christmas to all, and John.

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #22 – 2005-12-21 05:08 am

So I thought I would jump in and say something here, too. Sorry you haven't hear much from me, but I've been rather busy starting college. Now we're between the semesters, so I have a nice five weeks to relax a bit. So, NoteWorthy Software, if you've got any major things planned for NWC2, roll them out before January 23rd, please. :-D. Now, John, I realize you are frustrated and why you are frustrated. You purchased for the same price the same copy of NWC as everyone else and now it seems to you that is is worth less. Yet, NoteWorthy Software is purposely being very selective about who it lets into its beta testing group and with good reason. They probably don't want the amount of people using NWC2 to get too big just yet. Since this is pre-release software, they have every right to do that. Once NoteWorthy Composer 2 has been out for awhile, everyone will have to pay for it. Your problem with C and C# is well understood but is not an argument against the cost or availability of NWC2 because NWC2 handles the interpretation accidentials the exact same way as NoteWorthy 1.0 did. I checked. Your other major problem, tied notes, was explained away as an enhancement. Kindly remember also that NWC1 is still in active development. At times during the private beta period, features completely tested in NWC2 were added to NWC1, including import of lyrics. I have not doubt that this will continue. The big restriction is that the enhancement must not change the file format since that would create incompatibilities and headaches. As far as tackling note heads before the accidential problem, what's wrong with that? Its the way I do my homework. NoteWorthy Software has the right to tackle whatever problems first that they want to in a beta version of their software. Note also that while they release the smaller things, they are working on bigger things. For instance, there's something lurking under the letter "Z" ..

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #23 – 2005-12-21 06:56 am

G'day John,
I've been rereading some posts - yours among them and I have a small challenge for you...

Earlier you said, "...and I worked in software for over 20 years". My challenge, assuming you are a programmer, is: Approach NWC and offer to work on a fix for the "features" that are annoying you. Now I am perfectly aware that NWC may not wish to provide access to enough of their source to allow this to be feasible in which case the offer and evidence that access was denied will be deemed to have met the challenge. Or are those complaints really just an excuse to attempt to justify sour grapes?

You also spoke about "principles". Well, I suggest the principles of forgiveness and generosity should reign supreme here.

I often tell my staff "fix the problem, not the blame". In the spirit of this festive season I offer the same recommendation to you.

Despite how my words may sound I mean no offense and genuinely wish you a blessed, merry and happy Christmas and new year,
Lawrie

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #24 – 2005-12-21 12:43 pm

Hello Lawrie,
It would give me great satisfaction to produce a version of NW with fixes for the bugs I've talked about, but since NW isn't open-source, and even the file-formats aren't published, there's precious little chance of this. However, I publicly make the offer.

I agree with many posters here that NW has always been ridiculously good value for money; I would much rather that NW set the price to a realistic (higher) level to allow for a proper quality-control regime. This would involve a proper period of in-house testing; bug-fixing to the core functionality (in this case, sequencing) would take priority over enhancements to cosmetic aspects of the product; and reports of errors to Support would be promptly acknowledged and patches made available, where appropriate, free of charge.

These are some of the aspects of a professionally-run software project; I don't currently see any of them in place at NW, and that's why I disparaged it as "hobby-ware". However I STILL think that NW has the best note-entry interface in the business, and over the years I've recommended it to many people on this basis. Yes of COURSE I was bitter that because I bought through the recommended sales channel I was excluded from the enhancement processes; wouldn't you be?

I've also just re-read the posts and I see that Anita had picked up my typo in "diminshed"; I just "gotta say" [sic] that usual Forum etiquette is to concentrate on content not grammar or spelling. I suppose I DID breach etiquette by taking a swipe at the Land of Oz, but there again, "Pommy Autoerogenist" ain't exactly a "term of endearment"...

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #25 – 2005-12-21 05:08 pm

... and this last remark, by one otherwise unknown Jimmy, was quite uncalled for. Does this mean that Jimmy is Australian?
Have a merry Christmas, y'all. I had one of our cabinet ministers sing the 'Christmas is coming' round. Very good for the Christmas spirit!

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #26 – 2005-12-21 06:52 pm

... and for those who wonder about the note-heads: Some shapes, such as X, are essential for percussion, and are also used to indicate spoken words in the midst of sung lyrics. As for the strange shaped note heads, which are a user enhancement working with blank note heads: Shaped notes are, I believe peculiar to a form of nineteenth century American (southern) Gospel music, now in revival. I wouldn't expect non-Americans (or most Americans) to know that.

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #27 – 2005-12-21 09:47 pm

G'day John,
thankyou for taking up my little challenge - it will be interesting to see if NWC feel comfortable with the idea...

As you said, the product is not open source, and I can also imagine that the desire to manage QC may also be a limiting factor.

Which brings rise to another question... You made the comment about "hobby-ware"... I wonder if this is a realistic assessment or not. I certainly do not know how the NWC developers make a living - at $39 US per licence they'd need to be selling a lot of licences!

Here in Australia we have a disparaging description for traders of dubious quality and ethics - it is "backyard operator". The reality is that a lot of small business start out in someone's backyard and by definition are therefore "backyard operators". My own business started this way, yet while I was still in my backyard we achieved ISO9002 (now 9001) Quality Management endorsement. Some "backyard operator" huh.

To get back to the "hobby-ware" comment. Perhaps the NWC developers have day jobs, in which case the term is probably quite accurate. It does not automatically mean poor quality or sub standard code. And it is a given that one persons priorities are not necessarily anothers. E.G. The very fact that the vast majority of us are aware of the "octave accidental quirk" and work around it make it less (IMHO) of an issue than say the shape of slurs which, while not perfect, are much better in NWC2. It was only in one of the more recent revisions of NWC2 that the tied accidental issue was addressed - it is possible that this will find its way into NWC1 as some other fixes have.

As for the issue that started off this whole thing, I do not know why:
a) PDSL were for a while the "proper" way to buy NWC in the UK. Perhaps it was designed to avoid the seemingly random and exhorbitant duties being charged on CDs being shipped into the country. If this is the case then it was supposed to save you money!

b) Purchase through PDSL disqualified you from the NWC2 pre-release test program. Perhaps the quality of PDSL's record keeping made it impossible for NWC to be sure who was getting access to what is supposed to be a controlled access test process.

I can only speculate, but I'm sure there was no malice or greed involved. Those things do not seem in character with the rest of the way NWC is handled.

BTW I don't know who "Jimmy" is - I certainly do not endorse such personal comments and if you have felt at all insulted by any of my comments I apologise, such was not my intention.

Lawrie

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #28 – 2005-12-22 11:48 am

Hello Lawrie,
No insults taken from yourself.

Reading between the lines of this and various other threads, it seems that NW's focus isn't nowadays on sequencing - and sorry folks, that IS the core function of a sequencer - but on score-printing for the consumption of human musicians.

I rarely print scores other than to proof-read against an original, and so long as I can read it, I really don't care about cosmetics like noteheads, lengths of stems or shapes of slurs. For me the primary end-product of a sequencer is an audio stream, either played directly by the sequencer through a sound-card, or via the intermediary of a MIDI file and a MIDI rendering program (such as the excellent shareware SynthFont).

(MIDI files couldn't care less about enharmonics, by the way - to the MIDI spec a Csharp IS a Dflat, and a major 7th IS a diminished octave - they're both just 11 steps apart. Sorry if this offends Anita's sensibilities! But the only keyboards with separate keys for Csharp and Dflat nowadays are in museums.)

Yes you CAN workaround all the problems I cited at the top of the thread, but for me they're ALL a real pain. Early Baroque music is peppered with intentional false-relations in any case, and if I play back such a piece I have to listen VERY carefully to hear which are intentional and which have been introduced by NW's "octave accidental" bug. The stuck-note issue is more of an issue with 20th century music, where again such a dissonance MIGHT have been intended; and the poor treatment of parts within a staff is a daily headache for inputting musics of various genres.

If I had been in the loop on the direction of NW rather than sidelined, I feel that I could have had valuable input which could have kept NW honest to its roots as a sequencer, rather than being hijacked by folk who primarily saw it as a score-printer. It's a great pity, but the poster who said I'd be happier elsewhere is probably spot-on.

Best Regards, John

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #29 – 2005-12-22 12:25 pm

I think I'd disagree with you on one point, John - Noteworthy Composer has always been primarily a score writer, rather than a sequencer (certainly since I've been using it - version 1.5 something).
Like you, I use it primarily as a sequencer, so the presentation enhancements are of secondary importance, but even given its bias, I still find it the easiest sequencer to use (and certainly the cheapest). It ain't perfect, but it's damn good for what it costs.

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #30 – 2005-12-22 12:27 pm

G'day John,
no insults taken from yourself. - I'm glad, I would hate to think we couldn't disagree without acrimony.

I noticed in an earlier post a comment from yourself about sequencing and glossed over it. Now that you have reinforced it some things become a little clearer.

For myself the sequencing aspect is of almost equal importance as score appearance. I "discovered" NWC when my son introduced me to it after I had bemoaned the fact I hadn't found something I could write out good quality scores on my computer with. (I often say the only reason I got into computers in the first place was because I can't read my own writing - perhaps I should have been a doctor!)

Nevertheless I also appreciate good sequencing too, though I can live with workarounds and faults in the playback far more easily than poor appearance.

To each their own I guess.

I have never played with "hard core" sequencers but is something like "cakewalk" more appropriate? My guess is that the score input capability is simply nowhere near as intuitive and straight forward as NWC.

Like another poster (Tony) I have downloaded many trials of other products. While some have had some really neat features that I'd love to see in NWC (glisses, rises, falls, marcato, trills, mordents etc. etc..) that really work, their user interfaces are almost worse than useless by comparison!

IMHO that alone is worth persevering with the other faults.

IIRC there are several users who use NWC for primary input then export to MIDI for Cakewalk (or similar) to complete the sequencing. Perhaps an approach of this nature could save you some cash and still preserve the ease of input.

Lawrie

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #31 – 2005-12-22 01:37 pm

In all the time I've been using NWC it has NEVER claimed to be a sequencer, but rather a notation program. Sequencing has always been just an extra for the program.

You complaints are analogous to damning WordPerfect for not allowing you to manipulate inserted images in all the ways that CorelDraw would.

You shouldn't use a hammer on screws.

As a musical note, this whole thread reminds me of a scene in "Pirates of Penzance".

"But you DON'T go."

I suspect there is some relationship between your principles and your repeated interjections following your declaration "I doubt you'll be bothered by me again anyway".

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #32 – 2005-12-22 02:31 pm

Dear Cyril,
If you read the posts you'll see that my recent replies were responses to direct or implied questions from Lawrie.

PS WordPerfect - ah, there's a name from the past!
PPS You're now on MY "little list"!

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #33 – 2005-12-22 05:25 pm

Thank you Cyril - I shall now be humming "When the foeman bares his steel" for the rest of the evening!

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #34 – 2005-12-22 05:39 pm

May I say, as one of the older users of NWC ( 83 years), how good it is to see people with opposing views arguing but remaining polite! All too often discussions in forums tend to bring out a nasty streak in some posters.

Tony

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #35 – 2005-12-23 02:08 am

Let's see:

This is from the NWC homepage (emphasis mine).

"NoteWorthy Composer, our notation authoring tool, is a software music composition and notation processor for Windows. It allows you to create, record, edit, print and play back your own musical scores in pure music notation. You can use the built-in transpose feature to quickly adapt a part written for an instrument in a different key to the native key for your instrument. The print feature makes it possible to publish sheet music right from your desktop. You can also save your notation as a MIDI performance for use in other MIDI applications, including software karaoke players."

I don't think this blurb has changed much since 1996, when I bought to program. It was probably in the little blue manual that came with the 1.44 mb floppy (remember those?).

It seems to rather clearly indicate the program was not designed to be a sequencer. If that was your desire, John, well, so be it, I guess, but it looks as if the program is and always has been intended more for the notation side of things.

Nevertheless, some users have done wonderful and comprehensive sequencing with it - registered users can access the newsgroups, where these are often posted.

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #36 – 2005-12-23 08:17 am

Very interesting! So John Hinsley, a man of 20 years experience in software, has been MIS-using Noteworthy, then complains when it doesn't function very well in that role. By misuse, i of course mean using it for sequencing.
How many times on this forum have people requested new features to improve the sequencing?
Time and time again the answer has always been the same: Noteworthy is NOT a sequencer - if you want a sequencer, go buy one!

Lawrie's suggestion of co-operation with NWC was probably not one of his best - sorry, Lawrie.
Previous releases of NWC have resulted in cr@cks and being made available as w3r4z downloads! (i am NOT blaming PDSL for this)
Obviously, quite rightly, NWC would like to control future releases, taking things a step at a time. Handing over source to someone who has vilified <Graham R - where are you when i need you?> that software in a public forum is probably a step too far.

Ok, John, admit it, this was all a Christmas wind-up, wasn't it?

All an hilarious Christmas farce = <at this point ROFLMAO>

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #37 – 2005-12-23 09:26 am

G'day Frank,
Lawrie's suggestion of co-operation with NWC was probably not one of his best - fair call, however, as I'm sure John realized, the challenge was a case of "put up or shut up".

I am quite confident that NWC would not release code in order to make it possible. My intent was to imply to John that NWC, as the producer of a successful software product, should be considered competent to manage the coding priorities as they see fit. John very neatly called my bluff.

The most obvious thing that has been reinforced in this entire thread is that NWC simply will not be drawn into publicly justifying themselves, and rightly so, as they would only end up spending all their time arguing instead of coding!

Another thing that has become very obvious is that different users have different priorities. This too is quite reasonable although it would be a little better if those of us arguing the toss were accurate in our assertions. Sorry John, but in this your emphasis on sequencing has left you a little exposed. Though I can certainly understand why that would be your priority.

Sequencing related issues in NWC have often frustrated me and I have several times "left deposits" on the wish list.

I have followed quite a number of discussions relating to sequencing "tales of woe", I have followed just as many relating to score appearance.

Based on that, I suggest that the sheer number of items in the wish list must be enormous. NWC's developers are the only ones who can possibly have any idea who and how many have requested what as the wish list isn't public. And that itself has been another point of discussion.

We could argue this back and forth for ages but the end result would be: "NWC make the decisions, it's their product and they will do with it as they will". If they make the right choices, people will continue to purchase it, if the wrong ones then people will stop. It really is that simple.

In this thread John has made it clear that for him, some decisions have been the wrong ones. Fair enough, for the rest of us who have taken part in this discussion the choices appear to have been acceptable.

Thus NWC have made the right choices as the majority are satisfied, or at least not alienated.

While it isn't fun being in a minority, I thank John for his perseverance in making his point. If nothing else, he has further cemented the loyalty of most of us to NWC. He has also brought to notice some areas that are of concern to him. In this he is certainly representative of an indeterminate number of people with the same frustrations but who lack the motivation or courage to make their point. Nevertheless, I expect that indeterminate number to be relatively small as no-one has "leapt to his defence".

Now, before anyone jumps on me... I am well aware that it is not good practice to alienate any of your market, but the reality is "you can't please all of the people all of the time".

/soap box

Hmm, I do waffle on don't I

Lawrie

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #38 – 2005-12-23 04:30 pm

Lawrie, waffle on anytime, friend! G'day and a Merry Christmas to you, and don't forget the sunscreen in the land down under! (from a chilly Nashville TN, USA)

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #39 – 2005-12-23 09:42 pm

> How many times on this forum have people requested new features to improve the sequencing?
> Time and time again the answer has always been the same:
> Noteworthy is NOT a sequencer - if you want a sequencer, go buy one!

Once I started with NWC, I saw some of the "minor" sequencing tools built into the program that made me think more will be added later. Then I read lots of forum posts and saw that people wanted a notation program not a sequencer. Very well, I will go buy one, as suggested. But which one inputs a nice as NWC?

Answer: NONE!

So, I picked up CakeWalk Pro Audio 9 from ebay which has fantastic MIDI/Sequencing tools, downloaded GNMIDI and together with NWC have a complete studio setup that enables me to output scores fast and cheap.

Do I wish NWC was a sequencer *AND* notation program? Sure, but its not bit a big deal to use Inport/Export.

People try to use Microsoft Word like it were Adobe PageMaker for publication or Dreamweaver for Web development. While it may have general concepts for the 'hobbyist/beginner' to play with, it's not for the hard core experienced person.

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #40 – 2005-12-23 11:30 pm

G'day Milton,
waffle on anytime - <snicker> mate, don't offer twice, you might regret it <vbg>.

Thanks for the reminder RE sunscreen, today (Christmas eve - 10:30 AM as I write - it is already 38C (100.4 F) and climbing in the shade on my front verandah, and I live on the coast, less than a kilometre from the beach! I don't think I'll be venturing very far today!

A very merry Christmas and a happy and prosperous new year to all, and in this festive season, I pray God's richest blessing upon you. May the true reason for Christmas be uppermost in your minds and the love and joy that follows be upon all of us.

Blessya,
Lawrie

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #41 – 2005-12-28 12:39 pm

If John wants to play grumpy over nwc's alleged attitude to their user base, well good luck to him. However, if his interest is in sequencing why go for Sibelius? which I was always under the impression was primarily a notation program. It certainly looks like that to me and people I know that use it are using it for exactly that purpose.

If he wants a sequencer, then surely Cubase or Cakewalk are the industry standards for this type of product.

I have Cubasis, The cut down version of Cubase and it is very good too, but for ease of use, nwc's limited sequencing features beat even that hands down. However if you need the advanced features, then using nwc for basic note entry and exporting to midi is an excellent way to start as the basic note entry is so easy.

Lawrie, Stop gloating over the weather down under, it's snowing here :-)

Geoff

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #42 – 2005-12-28 02:56 pm

Lawrie,

Your thoughts and wishes on the subject of Christmas will be appreciated by many of us. The festive and commercial season is now over and we must now devote ourselves to the important theme of January sales, which now start, of course on Boxing Day, December 26!

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #43 – 2005-12-28 10:28 pm

G'day Geoff,
Gloating?!? - mate, I'd gladly swap ya. "See it snow, see it snow, see it snow!"

G'day Tony,
thankyou. As for the sales - well, people I like, crowds I hate - just don't have enough patience for 'em. Too chaotic for someone who likes order and peacefulness like me...

Blessya,
Lawrie

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #44 – 2005-12-30 12:59 pm

We should be so lucky, Geoff.
Black ice is predicted for the afternoon, and I need to get home on my bike (10 miles +)
Enjoy the last of 2005, and we take a cup of kindness yet!

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #45 – 2005-12-30 06:48 pm

A little windy with rain today in the southwest coast of Canada, but warm enough to go out with a light sweater.

Heard a day or two ago about horrible snow conditions in Rennes and in England, but got an email yesterday from a relative in Yorkshire who described it as a beautiful snowy day.

Sorry, no musical content.

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #46 – 2005-12-31 10:55 pm

Snow's gone now.

Temperature rose overnight from round freezing to 6C today.

Happy New Year to everyone.

Geoff

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #47 – 2006-02-16 05:32 pm

I retract (just about all of) my whingeing from last year - Eric has now allowed me onto the NWC2 preview despite having bought my 1.75 from a (recommended) distributor rather than directly from NW. Thanks to him publicly for this, and apologies to anyone I upset previously. You can now look forward to me making a nuisance of myself on NWC2 issues... John Hinsley

Re: NoteWorthy under new management?

Reply #48 – 2006-02-17 12:14 pm

Good to have you back John.