Skip to main content ↑ ↓
Topic: Page layout (Read 3491 times) previous topic - next topic

Page layout

Good morning to you.
I often find myself struggling with layout problems. Let me explain better.
If I transcribe a song, for example, of 48 measures, I would like to have 6 staffs of 8 measures each. This is to have an aesthetically decent layout and to have space under the last staff for the complete text.
I use staff properties ---> general ---> ending bar (open hidden) and then Force System Break. In the page preview a couple of staves always appear that occupy the entire width of the page. So every eight measures I put (Alt Gr + ]) ---> Force a new System (top staff only) or select bar and then "Force system break (are they the same thing?). The problem is not solved and therefore I "adjust" the width and height of the page so that the measures slowly fall into place. But it is always a long and frustrating job.
You have no suggestions for this topic?
Thank you and goodbye.
Lorenzo

Re: Page layout

Reply #1 –
Hey Lorenzo,
can you post an image showing the problem please?
I think I understand, but a picture really is worth a thousand words.

Part of what your saying seems to be how I would expect NWC to behave, with staves that fill from left to right margin, but then there seems to be a part that makes me think you're expecting a "ragged right" layout which makes no sense to me except possibly for the very last staff, but that makes no sense in a context of 48 bars across 6 staves.*

Confused... ;)

* are you printing in landscape?  8 bars across seems a lot to me - it would make the print very small.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.
 

Re: Page layout

Reply #2 –
I am busy with my grandfather function now. As soon as I am free I will send an example. Thanks.

Re: Page layout

Reply #4 –
This is the Baritone part of a folk song that is composed of 54 measures.
The first page preview is this: 54 measures on a single page (no space left for the text).

I would like to have 6 measures per system and nine lines. For the space of the text, even seven lines of six measures on the first page, two system on the second. Below you can write the text without problems.
I put every 6 measures (at 7, 13, 25, 31, 37 etc.) the indication of "Force new system". This is the result:

Re: Page layout

Reply #5 –
Sorry for the confusion.
First attachment: all the system on one page
Second attachment: 2 pages, with 6 measures per page indicated

Re: Page layout

Reply #6 –
Hi Lorenzo,
I haven't done any examples due to:
Some points to note:
  • When you add the lyrics they will interfere with the measure spacing, so you need them in place first in order to adjust things
  • you have a mix of 2/4 and Common time measures - they will take different amounts of space - for any given measure, if it's in 2/4 it will take less space than a 4/4 or Common time one.
  • You have several tools available to you for controlling measures per system:
    • You can turn off "Increase Spacing for longer notes" in Page|Setup|Options(tab)
    • Set system breaks on barlines
    • Set separate system breaks from the "Boundary" tab of Notation Properties <]>
    • You can use "Spacers" <Ins> - NOTE: a spacer can reduce space used.
    • You can beam notes smaller than a crotchet (quarter) - old practice was for lyric parts to never use beams - this has fallen by the wayside, use beams!
    • You can change the staff metrics in Page|Setup|Fonts(tab)
  • If you want blank space at the bottom of the page, turn off "Justify printed systems vertically in Page|Setup|Options(tab)
  • I'm not sure why you're insisting on a set number of measures per system.  Often the lyrics make this hard to impossible and in this case the mix of 2/4 and 4/4 (Common Time) measures makes it pretty much untenable

Also, both attachments are the same.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Page layout

Reply #7 –
Many thanks for your precious suggestions, as always timely and quick (the time zone juvat!).
I remember many of the "tricks" but I only remember them now that you tell me!
I will continue with my tests following your advice. Among other things, I think that the problem is made even more complicated by the presence of 4 lines (in the example I only put one).
Good night? Good morning?
Good time!
Lorenzo

Re: Page layout - my cookbook

Reply #8 –
Hi -

Here is my cookbook for "final page layout tuning of a score":

  • Decide on the "staff metrics" size; I typically use 18...19 for instrument voices; 16...17 for choral scores (3 to 4 voices), piano and organ; 14...16 for director's scores.
  • Setup up the printer's page format correctly (typically A4 or letter, but maybe something else).
  • Now, select the correct "Contents", i.e. which staves are to be visible in the print; and let NWC do the page layout.
  • If the layout is not "nice" (which happens almost always), one typically has one of 3 times 3 cases:
    - Regarding the number of systems on the last page, there may be
    (a) one system;
    (b) quite a full page of systems;
    (c) something in between ("half filled page");
    - Regarding the filling of the last system, this may be
    (x) almost filled nicely;
    (y) almost empty (ideally, a single final chord);
    (z) something in between.

In all these cases of a not almost perfect layout, I first "wiggle" (increase and decrease) the staff metrics by 0.5 (in stubborn cases also by 1) to find out whether I get a quite different layout that might be easier to fine-tune.
Also, I wiggle the left and right margins by 0.1 to 0.2  for each staff metric size. Let's call these systematic experiments "wiggling".

The best case that I try for by "wiggling" is (b) with (x) or (z): The last page is quite full, but the last system is filled too sparsely. In this case, the systems on that last page need to be evened out somewhat, and then one is done! For "evening out", see (1) below.

The next best case to get is (a) with (y): The last page has one system, which is almost empty. In this case, I try to get rid of that system - see (2) below.

In all other cases, I will first even out the systems on the last page (and maybe some on the last page but one) by method (1); and then maybe(!) try to even out the number of systems over all pages - see (3).

Ad (1) - evening out systems: I check how many measures nicely fit on a system (let's say this is 5); then I check how many measures are missing on the last system to get to this number (let's say there are 2 measures on the last system; so 3 measures are missing to also get 5). Now, I will add breaks to exactly that number (3) of systems as follows:
- The last system but one gets a break so that the last system has 5 measures.
- The systems above get breaks so that they have 4 measures.
So, I go from 5+5+5+2 measures to 4+4+4+5. Why does the last system get one measure more? - because the final measure typically is quite empty, with only a whole note in it.
Of course, if final measures are filled in some other, peculiar  way - e.g., 4 measures at the end contain only tied whole notes -, I will adapt the breaks somewhat. But I will always start at the last system and go upwards for 3 or 4 systems; and then stop.

Ad (2) - getting rid of a very empty system: Starting at the last measure, I go hunting backwards for measures with whole notes/rests on all voices (the first I find might already be the final measure of the piece!): There, I add spacers of length 4 or 3.5 behind each staff's whole note to contract these measures somewhat - until that almost empty staff vanishes. If I do not succeed with this in say 5 to at most 10 modified measures, I'll start hunting for halves doing the same. But if this is not successful, I'd stop - managing all those spacers later is not nice. I will remove all those spacers and search for a different "wiggling" version that is amenable to (1).

Ad (3) - evening out pages: I play around with the heights of the staves; but usually quite carefully: Adding/removing 1 or at most 2 units is all I'll try. I might be a little more aggressive for piano and organ staff pairs/triples, but of course need to take care that dynamics etc. between the staves are not pushed into the notes.

For both small and large scores, I always have found a layout that pleases my eyes with these steps.

NB. I never deselect "Increase spacing for longer notes".

H.M.

Re: Page layout

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
Also, both attachments are the same.

They are the same, but the page settings are different. In "Page Preview", in the first one everything is on one page, in the second one a second page appears. However it is not important, I will follow your advice to optimize the layout. Thanks.

Re: Page layout

Reply #11 –
Quote from: lawrroc –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
Also, both attachments are the same.

They are the same, but the page settings are different. In "Page Preview", in the first one everything is on one page, in the second one a second page appears. However it is not important, I will follow your advice to optimize the layout. Thanks.
I beg to disagree - for me they are identical.  Single page only.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Page layout

Reply #12 –
I attach the nwc files from which I saved the txt format.
If you still see them the same in the page preview, there is some problem. I see them differently.
But I do not exclude my mistake, I am not very familiar with these operations.
I take this opportunity to ask for information.
Is it possible to add an accidental or other to a single member of a chord?
E.g., a C/E/G chord already built, can I put a "flat" to the E without having to reconstruct the chord?
Thank you, have a nice day.
Lorenzo

Re: Page layout

Reply #14 –
I am an incorrigible recidivist. :-*  :-X
I hope it is the antelucan hour... otherwise there is reason to worry.
Bye.

Re: Page layout

Reply #15 –
Hey Lorenzo,
NOW I've seen the 2 pager  ;)

As for getting measure spacing right, you still need to have the lyrics in place as they change everything.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Page layout

Reply #16 –
I think that if you upload two files with the same name the last overwrites the first...  ;)

Re: Page layout

Reply #17 –
Nuh, when downloading, Winblows (or maybe my browser) offers a numerical differentiator as part of the filename of the second.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Page layout

Reply #18 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
Nuh, when downloading, Winblows (or maybe my browser) offers a numerical differentiator as part of the filename of the second.
????
Maybe you mean "uploading"...
Anyway I think I saw that effect but I didn't try recently. I can easily be wrong.

Re: Page layout

Reply #19 –
Quote from: Flurmy –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
Nuh, when downloading, Winblows (or maybe my browser) offers a numerical differentiator as part of the filename of the second.
????
Maybe you mean "uploading"...
Anyway I think I saw that effect but I didn't try recently. I can easily be wrong.
Nope - Downloading.  I downloaded both the above identically named files (actually, they are the SAME file) and the downloads have different names (added numerical differentiator in parentheses).
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Page layout

Reply #20 –
Quote from: Flurmy –
I think that if you upload two files with the same name the last overwrites the first...  ;)
Having re-read this post I agree.  I'm pretty sure you're correct provided it's all done in the one post.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Page layout

Reply #21 –
Never trust too much my memory!  :(

Re: Page layout

Reply #22 –
Quote from: lawrroc –
... I take this opportunity to ask for information.
Is it possible to add an accidental or other to a single member of a chord?...



I am really incorrigible! I had asked the same question a year and a half ago.
Lawrie had answered me, explaining what could and could not be done with a single member of an agreement.
Buona notte!
Lorenzo

Re: Page layout

Reply #23 –
Quote from: lawrroc –
... I take this opportunity to ask for information.
Is it possible to add an accidental or other to a single member of a chord?...
You probably found the answer already, but here it is again: Position the mouse pointer over the note in the chord that you want to add the accidental to, then right click and choose from the Accidentals menu in the popup.

Re: Page layout

Reply #24 –
Thanks, I tried a few things and managed to fix the problem.
It is important WHERE to place the cursor correctly!!! I did not do it precisely and the pop-up that opened did not show what I was looking for.
Good morning, good day, good afternoon, good evening, good night to you, princes of time zones!  :)

Re: Page layout - my cookbook

Reply #25 –
Quote from: hmmueller –
In all these cases of a not almost perfect layout, I first "wiggle" (increase and decrease) the staff metrics by 0.5 (in stubborn cases also by 1) to find out whether I get a quite different layout that might be easier to fine-tune.
Also, I wiggle the left and right margins by 0.1 to 0.2  for each staff metric size. Let's call these systematic experiments "wiggling".


If your score looks chubby after checking: Let's Wiggle Again
Always look on the bright side of life!