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Topic: So, what? (Read 2795 times) previous topic - next topic

So, what?

Help!
A score starts with a metronome of a 1/4 = 168, as you can see in figure 1.
After a while I get the info 1/4 = 1/4 (see figure 2).
Beside being an identity (but music can be odd, sometimes), what is it there for?

Re: So, what?

Reply #1 –
Hey Flurmy,
I can't read the time signature properly in the first image, but it looks like it might be a 3/4.  The second is a 2/4. 
The crotchet = crotchet is just saying that the tempo (crotchets per minute) is unchanged despite the change in time signature.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: So, what?

Reply #2 –
Yes, Lawrie, indeed it starts with a 3/4, but then switches to 2/4, then again to 3/2 (mistyping: I meant 3/4), then there is the 2/4 of the second image...
I don't understand why to change the tempo. Or should I do in the previous changes?

P.S. It's Strawinski, so keeping the 1/4 = 168 is not easy at all!
 

Re: So, what?

Reply #3 –
Caveat: I'm not formally trained in music theory, what I know I've "soaked up through my skin", so the following is what I've learned that way and may not accurately equate to "the rules".

If there is a 1/4 = 1/4 at each time signature change then the tempo remains at 1/4 = 168.  If there is no marking at the first 2/4 and/or the 3/2 then I would expect the 1/4 = 1/4 to be implicit.
The most likely reason for the time sig. changes is to adjust the meter so that implied emphasis appears in the right place.
3/4 = 1, 2, 3   1, 2, 3   1, 2, 3
2/4 = 1, 2   1, 2   1, 2   1, 2
3/2 = a "wider" 1, 2, 3; or perhaps 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6; or maybe 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.  This will depend on context though the latter 2 possibilities would most likely have been notated as 6/4 rather than 3/2.

It's also possible the 3/2 could be interpreted as 1/4 = 1/2 (which would halve double the original tempo), thus the explicit 1/4 = 1/4 at the following 2/4 (which would keep the half double original tempo) - let context be your guide...

I've played in a lot of bands and orchestras under a lot of different conductors and and band leaders and the one constant is that none of them seem to agree on how changes from x/4 to x/2 to x/8 should relate...  They almost always use context to figure it out.

Pretty sure most composers have their own ideas too.

I'm not sure what Gould has to say about this but I'm confident her interpretation is most likely correct.  Tempo equations help a LOT

<edit> Aside from the first paragraph, edits are in italics.  The first para is italicised for emphasis. </edit>
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: So, what?

Reply #4 –
I think I agree with Lawrie as far as the 3/4 to 2/4 times.  Is there a tempo eqauation where the 3/2 starts and what does it say?

I've never needed to worry how to interpret a tempo equation since I just watch the conductor, but this simple explanation seems useful.

https://steinberg.help/dorico/v2/en/dorico/topics/notation_reference/notation_reference_tempo_equations_c.html

Re: So, what?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
Caveat: I'm not formally trained in music theory, what I know I've "soaked up through my skin", so the following is what I've learned that way and may not accurately equate to "the rules".
So do I.  :D
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
They almost always use context to figure it out.
... as usual.  ;)
I hoped in a more formal explication.

https://steinberg.help/dorico/v2/en/dorico/topics/notation_reference/notation_reference_tempo_equations_c.html
Well, this is a very clear case: switching tempo from 6/8 to 3/4 (hemiola) can need the explanation.
But switching from 3/4 to 2/4 and saying that 1/4 = 1/4 is a pleonasm!

Ok, I'll use the good old method: I'll listen to some execution!  ;)

Thanks, mates.

Re: So, what?

Reply #6 –
I am not sure what could be a "more formal explication": Musical notation is either agreed on from quite old times (the center note after a treble clef is a b, for everybody), or it is custom in some community or among larger publishers (which might be written down, e.g. by Elaine Gould - but it's still custom). There is no "specification body" who would decree anything ...

Re the 3/4 to 2/4 change: There is a famous song "Es kommt ein Schiff, geladen" from the early 1400s which in the middle changes from three beats to two beats. The feeling, and the correct notation, is "alla breve". Typically, the first part is notated as 6/4, the second as 2/2 (or a C with a vertical bar), and at the change, it is indicated that a dotted half on the left equals a half on the right. About 70% of the conductors get this right, the other ... well ...

As for the Strawinski, I can only guess that in the "wider range of this composition", Strawinski or his editors thought that there might possibly occur a misunderstanding: Is there a time change with a different behavior in the same piece (but e.g. some other movement)? or in another of Strawinski's compositions of this time? or in the kind of music he was studying then (old music, probably)? One of these might explain the asserting notation at this place.

H.M.

Re: So, what?

Reply #7 –
Well, I know, "alla breve" must be carefully considered, depending on the musical period it refers.
So it may be very useful an extra indication.
But in my case it is not "alla breve"... I don't know.

P.S. I didin't know "Es kommt ein Schiff, geladen". How many versions on youtube!

Re: So, what?

Reply #8 –
Quote
pleonasm
What a cool word!