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Topic: quarter note's rest out side of the staff (Read 8713 times) previous topic - next topic

quarter note's rest out side of the staff

Hello, I am keying now the Bass staff but on Measure 15, I do not understand why the rest sign put outside of the staff, and if I put it on the staff, the time of this measure is not gonna be 4 beats. Can anyone explain what is the purpose of this?. Even though without the count of the rest, the beat is already 5 beats in measure 15, and is not gonna be alligned with the tenor's measure. How come the writer can make it alligned.

My other question is if on Tenor there is a sign of P Dynamic variance, and none in Bass, is it normal?.
Attached is the image of the song sheet in question.

Thank you,

Frank

Re: quarter note's rest out side of the staff

Reply #1 –
Hi Frank,
I'm not certain what the writers intentions actually are, but the split voicing in the basses may be either an expectation that the basses will have some sing one part and others the other part, OR perhaps it is an alternative for a second time through...  Don't know for sure and further context may help, but it doesn't really matter from the point of view of getting the writing to work.

There are only 4 beats in this bar, the crotchet (quarter note) 'C' in the "top" voice is in a chord with the minim (half note) 'C' in the "bottom" voice.  The offset rest is for the top voice only to give a correct beat count for that voice, it is ignored by the bottom voice.

To write this in NWC is easy:
  • place the crotchet C and set the stem UP
  • place the minim C by setting the value <2> and then the note <Ctrl+Enter>
  • place the rest <3> for the value, then <space> for the rest
  • select the rest <Shift+Arrow> across it then reposition it vertically <Ctrl+Shift+Arrow>
  • Now enter the rest of the notes as per normal.

The tie between the minim 'C' and the following crotchet 'C' looks ambiguous - it could be a slur or it could be a tie.  I think I'd use a slur.ms object to get the appearance while, otherwise a tie would stop the top voice from sounding the beat 3 'C' and a slur would interfere with the appearance of the later slur.

The 'p' dynamic in the tenor and not the bass is not unreasonable - it is just setting the dynamic to match the alto (which happens in the next bar), and probably the sop which I guess happens in a following bar we can't see.  The Bass may already be at 'p' from the previous page, OR it may be intended as a strong voice for the rest of the voices to use as a foundation.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: quarter note's rest out side of the staff

Reply #2 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
To write this in NWC is easy:
  • place the crotchet C and set the stem UP
  • place the minim C by setting the value <2> and then the note <Ctrl+Enter>
  • place the rest <3> for the value, then <space> for the rest
  • select the rest <Shift+Arrow> across it then reposition it vertically <Ctrl+Shift+Arrow>
  • Now enter the rest of the notes as per normal.


Thank you Lawrie for your explanation, but this is a didfficult one for me because I do not even understand the meaning of crochet C . and minim C. Is it like to insert a chord member?.
I already press Ctrl+ Enter, but the half note goes before the a quarter note
Thank you

Frank

Re: quarter note's rest out side of the staff

Reply #3 –
Hi Lawrie,

I have tried hard, I can only finish like  the attached, I can not slur neither tie the third note. I appreciate your help

Thank you.

Frank
 

Re: quarter note's rest out side of the staff

Reply #4 –
Hi Frank,
if we use only native NWC features we can't get it quite right without layers, but try this:
Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.751,Single)
|Clef|Type:Bass
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:Half|Pos2:-1^
|Rest|Dur:4th|Opts:Stem=Up,VertOffset=6
|Marker|Pos:4
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Slur=Upward
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Slur=Upward,Beam=First
|Marker|Pos:9.5
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

The only problem is the minim (half note) is tied to the crotchet (quarter note) on the third beat where the image suggests it should be a slur.  Unfortunately we can't use a slur here without going to layering because it would only reach the rest unless we also extended the slur from the rest in which case it would join with the slur for the top voice that's covering the last 3 notes:
Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.751,Single)
|Clef|Type:Bass
|Chord|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:Half|Pos2:-1
|Rest|Dur:4th|Opts:Stem=Up,VertOffset=6
|Marker|Pos:4
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Slur=Upward
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Slur=Upward,Beam=First
|Marker|Pos:9.5
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.751,Single)
|Clef|Type:Bass
|Chord|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:Half|Pos2:-1
|Rest|Dur:4th,Slur|Opts:Stem=Up,VertOffset=6
|Marker|Pos:4
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Slur=Upward
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Slur=Upward,Beam=First
|Marker|Pos:9.5
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End


The best fix is to use a slur.ms object:
Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.751,Single)
|Clef|Type:Bass
|User|Slur.ms|Pos:-3|Dir:Downward|Span:3|StartOffsetY:2
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:Half|Pos2:-1
|Rest|Dur:4th|Opts:Stem=Up,VertOffset=6
|Marker|Pos:4
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Slur=Upward
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Slur=Upward,Beam=First
|Marker|Pos:9.5
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: quarter note's rest out side of the staff

Reply #5 –
Hello, I refer to this topic with two specific questions.
1. the numerical values of slur.ms, slurCubic.ms, alt ctrl + @,  how are they chosen? In other words, 0 (zero) corresponds to the position of the notehead, to the center line of the staff (in which each space is equal to 1?)...
2. Is it possible to set the direction of slur (the "official" one, ctrl +;) before inserting it? Let me explain: when the stem of the note is up, the direction of the slur is down and vice versa. Each time it is necessary to enter the properties of the note and reverse the direction of the slur. I hope I have explained.
Thanks to you, I wish you a day.
Lorenzo

Re: quarter note's rest out side of the staff

Reply #6 –
Hi Lorenzo,
1. I just place the object, then adjust by trial and error...

2. No.  At least not that I know of.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: quarter note's rest out side of the staff

Reply #7 –
Molte grazie, Lawrie, temevo queste risposte. Mi armerò di pazienza...
Buona giornata.
Lorenzo

Re: quarter note's rest out side of the staff

Reply #8 –
You can leave the slur directions "wrong" while writing; and then select multiple notes and change the slur direction at once. See this animated gif, where I try to show how this works (on the right, you can see the keyboards keys I pressed):

<Image Link>

H.M.

Re: quarter note's rest out side of the staff

Reply #9 –
Great, HM!
So the steps are:
a) select all affected notes (with slurs)
b) turn the stems in the desired direction
c) in the note properties, adjust the direction of the slurs
Thank you have a nice day.
Lorenzo

Re: quarter note's rest out side of the staff

Reply #10 –
Quote from: lawrroc –
Hello, I refer to this topic with two specific questions.
1. the numerical values of slur.ms, slurCubic.ms, alt ctrl + @,  how are they chosen? In other words, 0 (zero) corresponds to the position of the notehead, to the center line of the staff (in which each space is equal to 1?)...
For most objects, including Slur and SlurCubic, the units of measure in the vertical and horizontal directions are different.  In the vertical, the unit is 1 for each note value. For example, if the object is positioned at G, then a value of 1 would represent the position of an A note (the space between the two lines) and a -2 would represent the position of an E note.  In the horizontal, the unit of measure is the width of a small notehead, i.e., the width of a quarter note. Try adjusting the various parameters for a slur and you'll see how this works.

Re: quarter note's rest out side of the staff

Reply #11 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
The best fix is to use a slur.ms object:
Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.751,Single)
|Clef|Type:Bass
|User|Slur.ms|Pos:-3|Dir:Downward|Span:3|StartOffsetY:2
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:Half|Pos2:-1
|Rest|Dur:4th|Opts:Stem=Up,VertOffset=6
|Marker|Pos:4
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Slur=Upward
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Slur=Upward,Beam=First
|Marker|Pos:9.5
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Hi Lawrie,
When I download it, I see it is already like the one in the song sheet, but my problem I do not know  how to make trial and error. Anyway how did you make the code. and downloadable and we can see the picture like what we wanted.

Thank you

Re: quarter note's rest out side of the staff

Reply #12 –
Hi Frank,

To create the code in the box:
  • Select*, in NWC, the section you want to create a code copy of
  • Press <Ctrl+C> to put it in the clip board
  • In the forum message creation space click the NWC2 button (far left, second row)
  • This will give you a section where you can paste <Ctrl+V> the code you copied from NWC - put it between the "code" tags
  • Done.  Now just complete the rest of your post

* Position the cursor at the start of the section, hold down <Shift> and move the cursor to the end of the section, it will highlight as the cursor moves - this is standard Windows stuff.  I'm sure you do it all the time when copying and pasting between staves or sections.

As for the "trial and error" bit how about I give you a step by step of how I created the segment?  I will be using only keyboard shortcuts for this example.  You could also use the menus and toolbars for much of it if you prefer.  If you haven't yet learned the keyboard shortcuts for the things you most commonly use I suggest you give it a go, it makes things soooo much faster and is one of the real gems of the NWC user interface.

  • in a new song, place the bass clef: press <C> arrow to the bass clef, press <Enter>
  • place the first crotchet 'C': place the cursor in the 2nd space, press <Shift+UpArrow> to force stem direction to 'up' press <3> to set time value and then press <Enter>
  • place the minim chord member: without moving the cursor press <2> to set the time value, press <Shift+UpArrow> to reset the stem direction** and then press <Ctrl+Enter> - setting the stem direction this way ensures the crotchet appears before the minim in the "split stem" chord
  • place the rest: press <3> to set the time value and press <space>
  • move the rest up: select the rest (cursor is to the right of the rest so just press <Shift+leftArrow>) then press <Ctrl+Shift+UpArrow> sufficient times to move the rest to the desired vertical position.
  • place the 2nd crotchet 'C': the cursor should still be in the 2nd space but the rest will still be selected, so press <RightArrow> to move the cursor to the right of the rest.  The time value should still be '3' so now just press <Enter>
  • place the 2 quavers: press <4> to set the time value, press <UpArrow> to move the cursor up, press <Enter>, move the cursor up again and press <Enter> again, beam them with <Alt+T> <B> (Tools, automatic beam).  This completes the note placements.
  • place the last slur: press <leftArrow> to move the cursor to the right of the 2nd last note, press <Shift+LeftArrow> twice to select the 'D' and the 'C' and then press <;> to make the slur.  Press <Alt+Enter> to get to note properties and change the "Slur Direction" to "Upward"
  • place the marker: move the cursor left <LeftArrow> to just before the crotchet 'C' that has the slur starting on it and press <Shift+@> to start the Marker dialogue, select the Slur checkbox (clear any others) and press <Enter>.  The marker will be on the 0 location on the staff (the centre line), select it <Shift+LeftArrow> and move it up <Ctrl+Shift+UpArrow> until it is in a pleasing location.  I found the ending position wasn't quite what I wanted so put a marker before the 'E' as well - same process.
  • place the slur.ms object: for reasons discussed previously we cannot just use a native NWC slur, so, position the cursor to just before the 'C'+'C' chord, press <J> to go to the "Add Object" dialogue, press <S> to rapidly move the the general location in the list of slur.ms, arrow to slur.ms and press <Enter>.  The dialogue that appears allows you to change parameters for the slur, ignore them for now and press <Enter> again
  • You will find that the slur will go from the chord to the rest in an upward direction and the starting point is close to the noteheads.  To fix this select the anchor for the object <Shift+LeftArrow> should do then press <Alt+Enter> to open the dialogue.
  • In the slur dialogue change the note span from 2 (the default) to 3.  This will extend the slur to the next note (the crotchet 'C'), also change the direction to "downward".  To move the starting point down use the "Start Offset", "Y" number box arrows to put a number in to see what it does, press <Enter>
  • observe the result - if you're happy with it, then job done, but if you want to change it go back into the dialogue and change the desired parameters (probably the Y start position) a bit to see if you get what you want.  Repeat as necessary until you're happy with the result - this is the "trial and error" part.
  • Job done

** Setting stem direction is a toggle - if you're uncomfortable using the keyboard to set this you can use the toolbar (if the stem direction icons are showing on one of them) OR use the "Notes" menu (Stem Up - near the bottom of the list)
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: quarter note's rest out side of the staff

Reply #13 –
Thank you Lawrie, I will try it, but first I will try to understand it.

Frank

Re: quarter note's rest out side of the staff

Reply #14 –
Quote from: FrankSit –
Thank you Lawrie, I will try it, but first I will try to understand it.
My pleasure Frank.

May I suggest that to help understand the process I outlined that you follow it step by step - I've pretty much stated every key press you need to make.  By actually doing each step and taking the time to observe what happens it should help you to come to grips with it.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: quarter note's rest out side of the staff

Reply #16 –
Quote from: Francis Beaumier –
Hi Frank,

It sounds like you're a bit confused by the UK names for notes. Maybe this chart will help?

https://musiker.com.au/blogs/blog-musiker/posts/crotchet-vs-quarter-note

--Francis
Since this is an international forum and not an island, I would suggest to the UK members to only use the names that everybody can understand  ;D
Always look on the bright side of life!

Re: quarter note's rest out side of the staff

Reply #17 –
Quote from: Opagust –
Since this is an international forum and not an island, I would suggest to the UK members to only use the names that everybody can understand  ;D
But I'm not in the UK and these are the names I use...   ;D
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: quarter note's rest out side of the staff

Reply #18 –
As a compromise, I suggest that all of us refrain from whole/half/quarter/breve/semibreve/demihemisemibreve/etc. and instead refer to all note durations by the number of MIDI clocks in that note. There are 24 MIDI clocks per quarter note / crotchet, and you can double / halve that number repeatedly to get the other durations.

I figure if we can't make everyone happy, then we ought to try to make everyone equally miserable.

Re: quarter note's rest out side of the staff

Reply #19 –
Bahahaha :D
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: quarter note's rest out side of the staff

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
Bahahaha :D
Ha...ha...ha...you guys are still lucky your languages are mostly used in this world. My native language Indonesian is very simple language, and I moved to California at the age of 60, and have been here for almost 8 years. One of my effort to slowing aging and alzhaimer is by learning computer software mostly MS Office product including Noteworthy. Actually my background is Finance and Accounting, but while in college I took the basic languange of program. To balance between my brain and physic/muscle my main job is housekeeping.

It is good that now a days we have kind of community where we can ask question and learn and we can learn from youtube anything.
Here below is my web, that I just built by selfstudy.,but all of this can happen because of the goodness of God and all of you guys my  friends

Frank H. Situmorang
Highland, CA 92346-5592
https://franksitumorang.com

Re: quarter note's rest out side of the staff

Reply #23 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
But I'm not in the UK and these are the names I use...   ;D

Fair enough. I mean, I'd argue that I'm not Arabic and yet, I still use Arabic numerals. Truth be told, I decided to just go with what a random blog post labeled them. Does Elaine Gould have a different name for them?? ;-)

Quote from: FrankSit –
Thank you Francis, I bookmarked your blog, I like it

Frank

You're quite welcome, but it's not my blog, just one that seemed to have a handy chart to steal.
Sincerely,
Francis Beaumier
Green Bay, WI

Re: quarter note's rest out side of the staff

Reply #24 –
Quote from: Francis Beaumier –
<snip> Truth be told, <snip>
We-elll, if we're telling the truth now...  :))  :))  :))  :))
Seriously though, while I was taught crotchets and quavers* etc. I tend to use examples from both nomenclatures.  E.G. it just seems to sit better to say "straight 8th's" or "swung 8th's" than it does to say "straight quavers" or "swung quavers" even though both mean exactly the same thing.   However, that said, my default setting is crotchets etc. as that is how I was taught as a child and I see no advantage is changing ;)

* I'm an Aussie, it's what we have traditionally used though with the increasing effect of US culture on the rest of the world common usage is changing here too.  Especially in the jazz world.

Quote from: Francis Beaumier –
<snip> Does Elaine Gould have a different name for them?? ;-)  <snip>
Dunno, don't care... ;)
Actually, I just looked up an excerpt online and it appears she uses "quavers" etc...  Does this mean she's a Brit?
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: quarter note's rest out side of the staff

Reply #25 –
Thank you Lawrie, finally I can make it like you said, I just focussed and followed every step that you mentioned.
Again thank you and God bless you

Frank
 

Re: quarter note's rest out side of the staff

Reply #26 –
Quote
But I'm not in the UK and these are the names I use...   ;D

No man is an island, but Australia is.  Kinda big, though.

Re: quarter note's rest out side of the staff

Reply #27 –
Quote
Ha...ha...ha...you guys are still lucky your languages are mostly used in this world... To balance between my brain and physic/muscle my main job is housekeeping.
It is good that now a days we have kind of community where we can ask question and learn and we can learn from youtube anything.
Here below is my web, that I just built by selfstudy.,

Hey Frank, one excellent feature of Noteworthy is this wonderful forum.  I tend not to visit unless I'm using NWC, but right now I'm going through the messages I haven't seen before.

I'm lucky my native language is English, but I had French (instead of Latin) forced on me in school, and I began to learn Swedish when I was middle-aged.  Unfortunately, Swedish bumped my French out of my brain, and when I try to speak in French I end up using Swedish words and grammar.

I appreciate the UK/Australian words for the note values, even though I don't always remember what each one means.

If you don't play an instrument, you might consider learning one and joining a community band.  Great for the brain, great for socializing.  A couple of hours every week where you just forget the world.

Like you, I learned to create my own webpages from scratch, too. Here's one example:
http://tdwaw.ellingtonweb.ca/TDWAW1.html