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Topic: MIDI controllers/effects (Read 4450 times) previous topic - next topic

MIDI controllers/effects

Hi y'all. I've been using NWC for over a decade now, but I don't have much experience with the MIDI controllers. When using MPCs, I only use volume, pitch bend, and tempo as the controller, because I don't know what the others do. I have no idea how to search for this online, because "MIDI controller" also means a physical MIDI input device.

For example, I'd like to add echo/reverb to tracks to give pianos more sustain, but the "reverb depth" controller doesn't seem to have any effect whatsoever.

Does anyone know of a good primer on which of these controllers actually do anything? I know it all depends on what your sound card actually supports, but I imagine the default GS Wavetable Synth has some features.

Also, I recall there was a .mid file that used a very specific drum sound that I couldn't find in the normal chromatic drumkit. I imagine that had something to do with MIDI commands. Does anyone know about that? Are there ways to access additional instrument sets or anything like that through MIDI commands?

Thanks!

Re: MIDI controllers/effects

Reply #1 –
For searching the internet, "MIDI CC" is useful - where CC is short for "continuous controller". This finds e.g. Nick's MIDI CC List; but what actually happens on the synth/instrument side is known only to the synth or virtual instrument and its documentation.

Also, please, do yourself a favor and dont use the default Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth. Rather, use a DAW - I use Reaper, it's cheap enough. You can also try to use a free VSTi container - but I was not happy with the ones I found 3 years ago.

I can't believe that nowadays "the soundcard" is relevent for any of this - we do no longer load sound fonts or virtual instruments into the sound card, but into the DAW; the sound card gets raw audio from there, nothing else. Or do I miss something?

Re the drums, I cannot help you, as I am not into drums - but maybe a simple bank select (on the staff or in an instrument change) could help?

H.M.

Re: MIDI controllers/effects

Reply #2 –
Drum bank is accessed by setting Bank Select MSB to 127 and Bank Select LSB to 0 and PC (Program Change) to select drum kit.

  1 Standard Kit   - the only kit specified by General MIDI Level 1
  9 Room Kit       - more ambient percussive sounds
 17 Power Kit      - more powerful kick and snare sounds
 25 Electronic Kit - emulations of various electronic drum machines
 26 TR-808 Kit     - analog drum kit similar to Roland TR-808
 33 Jazz Kit       - nearly identical to the Standard kit
 41 Brush Kit      - many brush sounds added
 49 Orchestra Kit  - a collection of concert drums and timpani
 57 Sound FX Kit   - a collection of sound effects
128 CM-64/CM-32L   - the standard MT-32 Drum Kit

Re: MIDI controllers/effects

Reply #3 –
Quote from: hmmueller –
<snip>Also, please, do yourself a favor and dont use the default Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth.<snip>
I concur!
Quote
I can't believe that nowadays "the soundcard" is relevent for any of this - we do no longer load sound fonts or virtual instruments into the sound card, but into the DAW; the sound card gets raw audio from there, nothing else. Or do I miss something?
Umm, I hope you're speaking for yourself here...  I do not use, nor have any intention of ever using, a DAW.  Nothing against them, but I'm not interested in creating electronic music.  For MY needs, notation is what is required so that a "meat machine" musician can create the sound, with all the variety and interpretation of the human element.  Rendering to mp3 or whatever is only useful to me for basic demonstration purposes of what I compose/arrange.
Quote
Re the drums, I cannot help you, as I am not into drums - but maybe a simple bank select (on the staff or in an instrument change) could help?
As for percussion sounds, there are several options.  In a "standard" General MIDI synth you usually have several "kits" available.  All on channel 10 (for most synth's.  Some are on 16, and some allow more than one - VSTi's give much more flexibility).  The patch selection defines which kit, generally patch 0 unless you want something different, like a Jazz kit, or a Rock kit, or Brushes etc.  This is synth dependent - can't "play" a kit that's not in your synth/soundfont/VSTi.

In addition to the drum kit, there are also other percussion sounds available, still on channel 10 (usually...) and using the same patch as the drum kit, but different "notes".  I suspect the sound you're looking for comes from the percussion sections of the synth rather than the standard drum kit "notes".  There is a DRUMREF.NWC in examples that is useful.

As I spend time (trying to) do concert band arrangements I've created a template that has many, many staves in the drum kit, AND the percussion section that are all transposed for individual sounds and layered for printing.  This way I can put a note on, say, the hi-hat, and because of the transposition it appears in the correct place on the chart, all while playing the right sound.  This was tedious to set up, and can be somewhat time consuming to use, but the end result works well.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: MIDI controllers/effects

Reply #4 –
Flurmy: Thanks a lot! That should really help with "DRUM SOUNDS." I didn't actually know how to use the bank select, or rather, what numbers would actually do anything...

Lawrie/HMM: It sounds like neither of you guys are using direct MIDI output, which is the only thing I thought NWC was capable of. I mean, I knew about the Coolsoft Virtual MIDI thing, but when I used it it was kinda slow and the soundfonts I had weren't that great. HMM, you're saying that Reaper or one of its VSTis gives access to a virtual MIDI output device that NWC can hook into? I guess most DAWs do that, then?

I dunno what you're using for output Lawrie, but maybe it would also be better for me. I mean, I was using NWC for orchestral arrangements, but I'm more interested now in stuff that I can produce on my own, stuff that people could actually listen to seriously. Those tinny samples have to go, for sure. I just thought I was gonna have to use a different program.

And yeah, I did know about DRUMREF. I started messing around with NWC when I was about 11 and memorized some of the note -> drum mappings. That was ~2000 or so.

Thanks for your tips! I wonder how much other stuff is lurking around that I never knew about.

Re: MIDI controllers/effects

Reply #5 –
Quote from: EBisumaru –
<snip>
I dunno what you're using for output Lawrie, but maybe it would also be better for me. I mean, I was using NWC for orchestral arrangements, but I'm more interested now in stuff that I can produce on my own, stuff that people could actually listen to seriously. Those tinny samples have to go, for sure. I just thought I was gonna have to use a different program.
<snip>
I use a softsynth.  Yamaha S-YXG50 on my XP box, which I really like, and BASSMIDI on my Win7 box as my S-YXG50 is XP only (and discontinued so I can't get a Win7 version).  BASSMIDI uses soundfonts so I'm always looking for the "next greatest" one.  I think I'll be forever frustrated unless someone exports the XG sounds into a font I can use - for my purposes the XG is the best I've heard.

Whatever you do - DO NOT USE THAT DISGUSTING M$ THING.  It was licensed from Roland sometime about the year 4000 BC and hasn't improved at all.

HOWEVER, if you want to actually produce an end product of electronic music rather than simply create scores, then you really should be looking at a DAW and a slew of VSTi's etc.  Use NWC for the initial creative process, export to MIDI for the DAW and take it from there.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: MIDI controllers/effects

Reply #6 –
>HOWEVER, if you want to actually produce an end product of electronic music rather than simply create scores, then you really should be looking at a DAW and a slew of VSTi's etc.  Use NWC for the initial creative process, export to MIDI for the DAW and take it from there.
Yes, that was Plan. ;D I'm well aware of the... ancience of the default MIDI offering. But eh, some sounds aren't so bad.

Could you recommend some good orchestral soundfonts to use with BASSMIDI?

Oh, also.
I do still make MIDIs to send to other people for WIP purposes, do you guys know any good lists of alternate patches in the banks that would come by default in the MS GS Wavetable Synth? I can't really find anything in the iTree forum about that (also everything is 4+ years old, wat?) I fear there's just the one bank available, huh.
 

Re: MIDI controllers/effects

Reply #7 –
Whoa! I actually seem to have just found a plugin to allow you to play with the Yamaha S-YXG50 samples here: http://veg.by/en/projects/syxg50/

You have to install the VSTi .DLL file and then use the given virtual MIDI driver to pass it through to the VSTi. Although I'm not sure if this is the one you're looking for; the sax sounds a little wonkly. (Maybe I'm using the wrong sax patch)

Re: MIDI controllers/effects

Reply #8 –
Quote from: EBisumaru –
Could you recommend some good orchestral soundfonts to use with BASSMIDI?
Not really, I'm still looking :(
Quote
Oh, also.
I do still make MIDIs to send to other people for WIP purposes, do you guys know any good lists of alternate patches in the banks that would come by default in the MS GS Wavetable Synth? I can't really find anything in the iTree forum about that (also everything is 4+ years old, wat?) I fear there's just the one bank available, huh.
I really don't use the M$ craptable synth so I can't help, sorry.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: MIDI controllers/effects

Reply #9 –
Quote from: EBisumaru –
Whoa! I actually seem to have just found a plugin to allow you to play with the Yamaha S-YXG50 samples here: http://veg.by/en/projects/syxg50/

You have to install the VSTi .DLL file and then use the given virtual MIDI driver to pass it through to the VSTi. Although I'm not sure if this is the one you're looking for; the sax sounds a little wonkly. (Maybe I'm using the wrong sax patch)
Thanks, but BASSMIDI isn't a VST host, so I can't use a VSTi with it.  Still, I'm thinking about going to VST again so I'll keep it in mind (as well as the download ;)
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: MIDI controllers/effects

Reply #10 –
There's an easy way to hear your NWC files with far better sound than the crap that comes from Microsoft allows. Simply download and boot up the current version of the NWC Viewer - it's a free program that plays NWC files through sound fonts. You'll find it on the NWC website, along with a downloadable copy of FluidR3, probably the best free sound font out there.

Re: MIDI controllers/effects

Reply #11 –
Quote from: EBisumaru –
Whoa! I actually seem to have just found a plugin to allow you to play with the Yamaha S-YXG50 samples here: http://veg.by/en/projects/syxg50/

You have to install the VSTi .DLL file and then use the given virtual MIDI driver to pass it through to the VSTi. Although I'm not sure if this is the one you're looking for; the sax sounds a little wonkly. (Maybe I'm using the wrong sax patch)
Thank you for this find.  There was a link to a driver called VSTMIDI that loads VSTi's without the need for a complex VST host and it's doing the job with the S-YXG50 dll just nicely.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: MIDI controllers/effects

Reply #12 –
Yes, that's what I said : P