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Topic: Chord Problem (Read 5351 times) previous topic - next topic

Chord Problem

Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.751,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:C|Tonic:C
|TimeSig|Signature:Common
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First|Dur2:4th|Pos2:1
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Chord|Dur:8th,Triplet=First|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First|Dur2:4th,Dotted|Pos2:1
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=End|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First|Dur2:4th|Pos2:2
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Chord|Dur:8th,Triplet=First|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First|Dur2:4th,Dotted|Pos2:2
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=End|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

What's going on with the fourth (dotted) crotchet?

Re: Chord Problem

Reply #1 –
It's making space for the dot. The dot shouldn't be there, BTW: the triplet and the quarter note are in two separate voices, and the upstem voice doesn't have a triplet in it.

Re: Chord Problem

Reply #2 –
Quote from: William Ashworth –
The dot shouldn't be there, BTW: the triplet and the quarter note are in two separate voices, and the upstem voice doesn't have a triplet in it.
That of course is a matter of opinion and not actually relevant to the point I'm making.

There's no need to make space for the dot – it would sit quite happily in the space where it would normally be.
If you do it with layering then it comes out perfectly correctly and as you'd expect.

Re: Chord Problem

Reply #3 –
Actually, it does the same thing without the triplet. It seems to have different rules for spacing when only one note is dotted, versus both of them:
Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.751,Single)
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Down|Dur2:4th,Dotted|Pos2:-1
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:4th,Dotted|Pos2:-2
|Chord|Dur:4th,Dotted|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Down|Dur2:4th,Dotted|Pos2:-1
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Re: Chord Problem

Reply #4 –
Sorry, Peter, but I don't think this is a matter of opinion. Without a tuplet bracket on the upper voice, that voice has no tuplet. If it has no tuplet, the dot gives it a half-beat longer time than the tuplet below it takes. Double-stemmed writing is a way of placing two independent voices on the same staff, and they should be treated as if they were on separate staves, except where required for ease of reading. Dotting the upper voice in this instance complicates the reading rather than making it easier.

If this seems unclear, consider how two eighth notes in the upper voice against a triplet in the lower voice would be handled. The eighth notes in the upper voice don't get dots. It is common to use a duplet bracket against the triplet bracket in such cases, but that's necessary only for clarification, not for accuracy -  I've seen music where the duplet bracket doesn't appear, or appears only the first time in a long section of two-against-three writing.

I'm not a ranking expert in notation, of course, so I checked Elaine Gould's book (Behind Bars) just now. She doesn't specifically address the problem of showing a dotted note against a triplet; however, she does discuss tuplets in double-stemmed writing, and in the single example she gives there of a  tuplet with stems one direction against a note in the other voice that takes the entire time of the tuplet (an 8th note triplet against a quarter note, as in your example), that note is undotted. I think that's definitive.

Re: Chord Problem

Reply #5 –
Quote from: Mike Shawaluk –
Actually, it does the same thing without the triplet. It seems to have different rules for spacing when only one note is dotted, versus both of them:

I only put the triplets in so that it all lined up nicely! Not so that William could go so spectacularly off topic.

Yes, your final chord is the way it should be done (without the second dot of course).

And I was only partially correct about layering. It works if the dotted note is on a line, but not in a space.

Re: Chord Problem

Reply #6 –
The topic, as I understood it, was what to do about the dot. My answer: leave the dot off, because it doesn't belong there in the first place. Problem solved, in the easiest possible way. Interesting that you should consider it off-topic.

Re: Chord Problem

Reply #7 –
Quote from: William Ashworth –
It's making space for the dot.
On topic, and fair comment.
Quote
The dot shouldn't be there, BTW
Off topic. Please read the title. If the dot wasn't there then there wouldn't be a problem to demonstrate!

Re: Chord Problem

Reply #8 –
Quote from: Peter Edwards –
Off topic. Please read the title. If the dot wasn't there then there wouldn't be a problem to demonstrate!
Then perhaps demo it like this to save confusion?
Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.751,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:C|Tonic:C
|TimeSig|Signature:Common
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First|Dur2:4th|Pos2:1
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Chord|Dur:8th,Triplet=First|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First|Dur2:4th,Dotted|Pos2:1
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=End|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First|Dur2:4th|Pos2:2
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First|Dur2:4th,Dotted|Pos2:2
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Chord Problem

Reply #9 –
The dotted note with the triplet is still wrong, Lawrie, and if the problem is the placement of the dotted note in relation to the triplet, it's still on topic to point out that the solution is to remove the dot, Peter. However, this whole argument could have been avoided if you'd used this clip instead:

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.751,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:C|Tonic:C
|TimeSig|Signature:6/8
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First|Dur2:4th,Dotted|Pos2:2
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First|Dur2:4th,Dotted|Pos2:2
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

In 6/8 time the dot belongs there, and the space allowed for the dot here is the same as it was in your triplet And that space is - as you correctly pointed out - greater than it needs to be.

Gould recommends, in cases like this, to consider reversing the normal order of the note heads, so that the dotted quarter note follows the eighth note it's played together with instead of preceding it. This allows the note heads to butt against each other as if they were on one stem. But either doing that or simply shrinking the space requires layers in NWC (unless Rick can come up with something).

Re: Chord Problem

Reply #10 –
Quote from: William Ashworth –
doing that or simply shrinking the space requires layers in NWC (unless Rick can come up with something).
I cannot. IMO, with two voices, layers should be used. Something like this:
Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposer(2.751)
|Editor|ActiveStaff:2|CaretIndex:1|CaretPos:0
|AddStaff|Name:"Staff"
|StaffProperties|EndingBar:Open (hidden)|Visible:N
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:C|Tonic:C
|TimeSig|Signature:6/8
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First|Dur2:4th,Dotted|Pos2:2
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First|Dur2:4th,Dotted|Pos2:2
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Bar
|AddStaff|Name:"Staff-2"
|StaffProperties|EndingBar:Open (hidden)|WithNextStaff:Layer
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:C|Tonic:C
|TimeSig|Signature:6/8
|Note|Dur:4th,Dotted|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Up,XNoteSpace=1
|Note|Dur:4th,Dotted|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Up,XNoteSpace=1
|Bar
|RestMultiBar|NumBars:14|PrintOnce:N|WhenHidden:ShowBars,ShowRests
|Bar
|Boundary|Style:NewSystem|NewPage:N
|AddStaff|Name:"Staff-2-2"
|StaffProperties|EndingBar:Open (hidden)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:C|Tonic:C
|TimeSig|Signature:6/8
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Spacer|Width:175
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Spacer|Width:175
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Spacer|Width:175
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Spacer|Width:175
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Spacer|Width:175
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposer-End
Registered user since 1996

Re: Chord Problem

Reply #11 –
Gould's solution. Exactly, Rick.