Confusion over Segnos and repeated sections

2014-10-13 01:09 pm

   Here's a sequence "extracted" from Schott's edition of Charpentier's "Messe de minuit de Noel" [the Agnus Dei on pages 64/5] (don't worry about the huge missing chunks; they're not relevant).

   I expect the red bit to be played (twice), followed by the green bit (twice) followed by the blue bit, and then back to the Segno and the red bit (twice) and the green bit (twice) again, and then stop at the Fine. However, as you'll see, following the jump back to the Segno at the start it plays up to the 1st Special Ending then jumps direct to the beginning of the green bit (once only) and thence to the end of the blue (and stops).

   What am I doing wrong?

   MusicJohn, 13/Oct/14

Re: Confusion over Segnos and repeated sections

Reply #1 – 2014-10-13 01:25 pm

Hi John,

A couple of points.

Firstly, I'm no musical expert but I understand that after a DS or a DC marking, any section that has a master repeat bars will only be played once after the DS or DC marking.

Because of that, your first and second repeats need to have a D (for default) in the second time bars in the red and green sections as well as the 2.

If you do this then then Noteworthy will play the final note in the repeated bars after the DS marking and will then stop at the proper place.
After the DS marking, it will not play the repeated sections twice, but then as I said, I don't think it's meant to.

Re: Confusion over Segnos and repeated sections

Reply #2 – 2014-10-13 01:46 pm

These references may help (or not !)

http://www.ars-nova.com/Theory%20Q&A/Q109.html

http://www.noteworthysoftware.com/nwc2/help/MNU_ADDFLOWDIRECTION.htm (See D.S. al Fine)

Since your second time bars are the same as the first time bars, if you really want the repeat after the DS instruction, then use local repeats instead of master repeats. It works - I just tested it.

Rich.

Re: Confusion over Segnos and repeated sections

Reply #3 – 2014-10-13 02:35 pm

I've also got a problem with repeats, no Segnos, but the chorus repeats with different words. After the first verse & chorus, only the "repeat" words of the chorus are hi-lited; it will repeat the chorus, but the second repeat words are always hi-lited, whether the first time through or the repeat. I've tried different tactics, but can't seem to make it work right (honestly, I don't remember what all I've tried; it's been a while since I worked on it.

Re: Confusion over Segnos and repeated sections

Reply #4 – 2014-10-13 02:47 pm

Susanna, I can't understand the problem from your description.

You can always send it to me and if I see it, maybe I'll understand what you mean.

Re: Confusion over Segnos and repeated sections

Reply #5 – 2014-10-13 03:41 pm

Quote from: Susanna – 2014-10-13 02:35 pm

I've also got a problem with repeats, no Segnos, but the chorus repeats with different words.

If you don't want the chorus to repeat with different words, you might try the attachment.

Re: Confusion over Segnos and repeated sections

Reply #6 – 2014-10-13 03:57 pm

   Hi, Richard.

   You say:-

   "Firstly, I'm no musical expert but I understand that after
   a DS or a DC marking, any section that has a master repeat bars
   will only be played once after the DS or DC marking."

   OK. So that's the "Rule" mentioned in your first Weblink. I didn't know about that. I suspect it applies here (I don't think "here" is an exception).

   And then:-

   "Because of that, your first and second repeats need to have
   a D (for default) in the second time bars in the red and green
   sections as well as the 2.

   "If you do this then then Noteworthy will play the final note
   "in the repeated bars after the DS marking and will then stop
   at the proper place."

   Yup. That works fine. Mind you, I don't understand about Default endings - and I don't entirely understand what the Noteworthy Help File -

   http://www.noteworthysoftware.com/nwc2/help/MNU_ADDSPCLENDING.htm

- is saying about this ... but I see that the Default can be made any of the numbered endings and will cause that ending to be played - and to be the one played - after the Segno.

   "If you do this then then Noteworthy will play the final note
   in the repeated bars after the DS marking and will then stop
   at the proper place.

   "After the DS marking, it will not play the repeated sections twice,
   but then as I said, I don't think it's meant to."

   Yes. So in fact Noteworthy is playing properly according to the Rules. OK. I should have looked at this Webpage first. Sorry about that!

   "Since your second time bars are the same as the first time bars,
   if you really want the repeat after the DS instruction, then use
   local repeats instead of master repeats. It works - I just tested it."

   They're not quite, but, yes, I understand the point.

   Thanks for your assistance.

   MusicJohn, 13/Oct/14

Re: Confusion over Segnos and repeated sections

Reply #7 – 2014-10-13 04:23 pm

Quote from: Rick G. – 2014-10-13 03:41 pm

If you don't want the chorus to repeat with different words, you might try the attachment.

Rick,

Not sure - but I don't think that can be Susanna's problem since I have given her the example that you just supplied a couple of times.

Re: Confusion over Segnos and repeated sections

Reply #8 – 2014-10-13 11:38 pm

I want the chorus to repeat with different words - but I want it to do the same thing every time as it does on the first verse. After the first verse, it only highlights the "repeat" words both times. Am I clear enough, or does this sound muddled? Yeah, Richard helped me out a lot with figuring out this stuff, but this is not quite the same as anything I've done before.

Re: Two line Chorus

Reply #9 – 2014-10-14 04:28 pm

Quote from: Susanna – 2014-10-13 11:38 pm

I want the chorus to repeat with different words - but I want it to do the same thing every time as it does on the first verse.

Perhaps this attachment does what you want.

Re: Confusion over Segnos and repeated sections

Reply #10 – 2014-10-14 07:20 pm

Quote from: MusicJohn – 2014-10-13 01:09 pm

I expect the red bit to be played (twice), followed by the green bit (twice) followed by the blue bit, and then back to the Segno and the red bit (twice) and the green bit (twice) again, and then stop at the Fine.

If that is what you want, the attachment is one way to do it.

Edit: See https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=8922.msg63347#msg63347 for a simpler solution.

Re: Two line Chorus

Reply #11 – 2014-10-14 11:16 pm

Quote from: Rick G. – 2014-10-14 04:28 pm

Perhaps this attachment does what you want.

That looks like it might; I'll try it.

Re: Confusion over Segnos and repeated sections

Reply #12 – 2014-10-14 11:26 pm

Well, almost. Now it highlights both lines of the chorus on both times through.

Re: Two line Chorus

Reply #13 – 2014-10-14 11:47 pm

Quote from: Susanna – 2014-10-14 11:26 pm

Now it highlights both lines of the chorus on both times through.

Original is for a one measure Chorus. Here is an attachment for a two measure Chorus. HTH

Re: Two line Chorus

Reply #14 – 2014-10-15 12:10 am

Quote from: Rick G. – 2014-10-14 11:47 pm

Original is for a one measure Chorus. Here is an attachment for a two measure Chorus. HTH

I don't think I did it exactly the way you showed; I'm not sure about how you handled all the different endings. I have local repeats around everything, master repeats around the chorus with 1st ending; 2nd ending indicated with a "4" for 4 verses. It looks like you put "endings" to include all the verses, with the endings juggled a bit for the chorus; I don't quite get it. (Don't mind my ignorance, I've just been getting the hang of this software in the last few months).

Re: Confusion over Segnos and repeated sections

Reply #15 – 2014-10-16 08:33 am

Thanks, Rick G. I need to think about your suggestion; to work out how you've arranged the special endings and the local repeats - and how you've blended a flow control staff with other staves not using the same flow control commands. Interesting. I've vaguely thought about that for other reasons, but never so far tried to implement it.

MusicJohn, 16/Oct/14

Re: Confusion over Segnos and repeated sections

Reply #16 – 2014-10-16 04:24 pm

Quote from: MusicJohn – 2014-10-16 08:33 am

Thanks, Rick G.

You are welcome.

Upon further review, I realize that I made this more complex than was needed.
The flow of the piece is: AB AC DE DF G AB AC DE DF
This clip implements that flow:

Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.51,Single)
|Ending|Endings:1,2,4,5|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:-1
|Bar
|Ending|Endings:1,4|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:0
|Bar
|Ending|Endings:2,5|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:1
|Bar
|Ending|Endings:2,3,5,6|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:2
|Bar
|Ending|Endings:2,5|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:3
|Bar
|Ending|Endings:3,6|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:4
|Bar
|Ending|Endings:3|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:5
|Ending|Endings:1,2,3,4,5|Visibility:Never
|Bar|Style:MasterRepeatClose
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

from there, it is a matter of creating a visual staff with your flow instructions and to layer it with a playback staff devoid of flows and decorated bar lines. A simple copy/paste of the Special Endings and Master Repeat Close from the clip to the playback staff yields the attachment.

Re: Confusion over Segnos and repeated sections

Reply #17 – 2014-10-17 08:57 am

Mmmm. Thanks. I'll give it some thought - but at the moment I've chickened out, and gone with Richard's solution above (default endings). You can see it in the Agnus Dei at http://www.learnchoralmusic.co.uk/Charpentier/Messe de Minuit-Schott/minuit-messe.html - and that despite the fact that, on a recording I listened to, the repeats are in fact played after the Dal Segno.

MusicJohn, 17/Oct/14

Re: Two line Chorus

Reply #18 – 2014-10-17 03:45 pm

Quote from: Rick G. – 2014-10-14 04:28 pm

Perhaps this attachment does what you want.

I just checked over that clip again, and it does do what I want; I just have to figure out how to implement it.

Re: Confusion over Segnos and repeated sections

Reply #19 – 2014-10-17 09:45 pm

Quote from: MusicJohn – 2014-10-17 08:57 am

<snip> - and that despite the fact that, on a recording I listened to, the repeats are in fact played after the Dal Segno.

Traditionally, repeats are NOT played after a DS or DC unless and until you get into a Coda, BUT, more and more in modern literature, and especially jazz (not so modern there), repeats being observed after a DS or DC has become the norm.

With this in mind I would very much like to see a (file embedded) switch that told NWC whether or not to do this and therefore gave us the choice.

I believe I have posted this on the wish list lo these many moons ago.