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Playback

I apologize if this has been covered, but for some reason either I have missed it or I am just not fully understanding it.

I love Noteworthy Composer, and it is by far my notation software of choice for a number of reasons.  The main reason I have even attempted to look elsewhere is the playback feature.  Everything I have plays back with the default MIDI sounds of my computer so my orchestral arrangements all sound so plinky-plunky and are a bit embarassing to show to others. 

I would love to import a bank instruments like the Garritan Orchestra.

Is there a simple, one-stop-shop place where I can go for details as to how to do this?  Is a new sound card essential, or a new software package, or is it possible only through these "instrument trees"?  Do I need a third piece of software to provide a virtual connector (I believe that was discussed for previous versions of NWC).

I'm sorry if I'm dense or have missed it where others have explained it.  Right now, I'm using version 1.75b but am ready and willing to upgrade if that will facilitate this.

Re: Playback

Reply #1 –
G'day Bill,
as you have clearly determined, it is the quality of the default windows synth that is the worst problem.  Within NWC it is possible to select any synth that is installed on your computer, so the problem is less NWC and more synth availability.

GPO is a complex product that needs some careful skull sweat to make the most of.  Doesn't really matter what notation software you're using, though I believe some packages integrate GPO fairly well and this makes it easier.  NWC is not one of these.

However that isn't the end of the story.  Probably the easiest way to find the sounds you are looking for is to use soundfonts.  If you have a Creative sound card that is easy (with a few exceptions E.G. X-Fi eXtreme Music does NOT support soundfonts, while the eXtreme Gamer does!  Go figger)

Another way into soundfonts is to use a softsynth like Synthfont.  Synthfont is available as both a standalone synth and as a VST plugin.  To use it in the latter guise check out my "VST For Dummies Like Me" document on the Scripto:
http://nwc-scriptorium.org/helpful.html#Explanations

Hope this helps some.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Playback

Reply #2 –
Thanks Lawrie,

It sounds like a lot of work to get it set up, but I also get the impression that once it's set up it is somewhat low maintenance.  Hopefully that is true!

A couple follow-up questions:

1.  Do those steps in your document pertain to a particular version of NWC or can they be applied to any?
2.  If one obtains the "Creative" soundcard or something like it, does that immediately solve the problem or are further steps required still?
3.  How bad is the lag effect from doing all this extra set-up that you have outlined in the document?  Where is the lag noticed more--that the playback doesn't match the notes on the screen that are highlighted?  Or does the playback itself suffer by missing beats or something?

Thanks!
Frank (aka Bill)

Re: Playback

Reply #3 –
G'day Frank/Bill,

The VST approach has a lot of flexibility.  Lots of room to fiddle with effects etc.  It is also possible to run multiple synths (though Synthfont will only work one soundfont at a time even though you can have multiple instances) to give a larger library of sounds.  NWC can be set to playback to multiple synths/MIDIYoke ports and VSTHost will allow you to route on a per channel basis IIRC.  So yes, setup can be involved and even ongoing.  On the other hand, if you are happy with one certain soundfont and get what you consider a satisfactory result then it is "set and forget".

Please note that my VST solution is only one approach.  There are many alternatives around that may ultimately suit you better.  My document was primarily intended as an introcuction to the VST concept that had the added advantage of working satisfactorially in the real world.

To address your questions:
1) The steps in my little missive apply to all versions on NWC, and can apply to other products that use external synths as well.  Though there are many NWC specifics the concepts are transferable to other products.

2) I haven't done much with Creative soundcards of late.  Especially with Vista/Win7 so I can't really say if there are further complications with their current software.  With their older XP based products it was relatively easy, the only pain being the GigaBytes of soundfonts I auditioned...  Now, as far as I know, Creative are the only ones still providing built in synths so if it isn't a Creative card then you need to look for a software synth solution.  This is where my VST document can help.  For myself, I'm still using Win XP so my Yamaha S-YXG50 soft synth still works.  It is a personal favourite and a primary reason why I haven't moved to Vista/Win7 on my daily PCs.

3) the lag, or latency, will be system specific.  How fast is your CPU, your HDD access, how much RAM, which OS etc. will all have an impact.  It will usually present as a delay between the note chase in NWC and the sound, though in my Vista test bed for the VST document I also had erratic tempos.  I put the blame for this squarely on Microsofts shoulders in that Vista was such a performance dog.  However, in conjunction with this, the test bed machine was never really up to the specification needed for Vista even though it shipped with that version of Windows installed.

Remember that if you go the ASIO route using ASIO4ALL that other system sounds will be hobbled.  Some soundcards (including most Creative ones) provide an ASIO interface that is less, umm, intrusive.

Long term, it is my hope that NWC will incorporate a VST host mechanism, or possibly a DX host with VST wrapper (which might provide more flexibility) but until, and if, such an enhancement occurs an external VST solution (like my approach) will suffice.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Playback

Reply #4 –
Lawrie wrote:
Quote
For myself, I'm still using Win XP so my Yamaha S-YXG50 soft synth still works.  It is a personal favourite and a primary reason why I haven't moved to Vista/Win7 on my daily PCs.
I'm with you on that one for as long as possible!
Last week just out of curiosity (for now, and later for the inevitable future non-XP rig) I did a google search on "Yamaha S-YXG50 Vista 7".  It seems many people feel the same way about the Yam softsynth enough to hack a way for it to work in Windows Vista and 7.  There were varying degrees of sophistication/aggravation in the methods described, but also mentioned was a free download available from Microsoft called (IIRC) Virtual PC 2000.  It was said to allow legacy XP/2000 applications to run in their own window inside of Vista or 7.  I don't know if or how well applications such as NWC in 7 would interact with the S-YXG50 running in Virtual PC 2000 or what anyone's experience with VPC2000 has been.  Anyone, anyone, Buehler?

Re: Playback

Reply #5 –
G'day Milton,
Quote from: Milton –
...It seems many people feel the same way about the Yam softsynth enough to hack a way for it to work in Windows Vista and 7.  There were varying degrees of sophistication/aggravation in the methods described, ...

Ya wouldn't like to provide a couple of links would ya?
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Playback

Reply #6 –
Some links re: getting Yamaha S-YXG50 softsynth to work on Windows Vista/7:
(* for . since I can't post links)

Microsoft Virtual PC 2007 (may also be called "Windows XP Mode"):
www*microsoft*com/Windows/products/winfamily/virtualpc/default.mspx

Various discussions:

www*cybertechhelp*com/forums/showthread.php?t=196610

www*techsupportforum*com/hardware-support/sound-cards/461362-solved-yamaha-softsynthesizer-s-yxg50-vista-7-drivers.html

geeks*pirillo*com/forum/topics/xg-softsynth-on-windows-7

Includes a VSTi plugin for S-YXG50?  Lots of links here:
yamaha-x-s-yxg50-vsti-plugin-3578983*cooga*net/

Lawrie can maybe give us the details on how to do this from a comment:
Quote
If you're on Vista, even that won't work. However, the other option you have is using the S-YXG50 VSTi with foobar2000. I'm doing this at the moment (being an ex-patriot of Winamp), and it works perfectly. This will work on both XP and Vista. There's also the aforementioned MidRadio player that has XP and Vista versions, and the unofficial SYXG2006LE VSTi which has the same sound ROM as the MidRadio, though both are XG Lite, and lack most of the sysex parameters that the S-YXG50 stuff has.


Verrry interesting looking!  Purports to be a zip file of a version pre-configured to work in Win 7:
www*getvn*com/8ae/link/YAMAHA+XG+SoftSynthesizer+S+YXG50+Ver+4+23+14+WDM+for+windows+7+zip.html

www*picktorrent*com/torrents/d7/yamaha-softsynthesizer-s-yxg50-4-vista/

Re: Playback

Reply #7 –
FerWotIt'sWorth ...

There are some Web forums talking about "Oracle VM Virtual Box" which seems to allow a Windows 7 host to run another OS as a guest.  Probably best to just Google that term and pick and choose from the links.

Can't budge from Windows 2000 here, to avoid such issues as mentioned in this thread and elsewhere.  It's hard to call Win2K "obsolescent" when it always runs rock-solid, and handles the NWC apps, Yamaha S-YXG50, likes the Audigy 2 drivers with the card's soundbanks, Vienna Studio, Audacity, etc  . . .  and is happy with other apps than run without a hiccup.



Joe

Re: Playback

Reply #8 –
G'day Milton,
thanks for the links.
Quote from: Milton –
Verrry interesting looking!  Purports to be a zip file of a version pre-configured to work in Win 7:
www*getvn*com/8ae/link/YAMAHA+XG+SoftSynthesizer+S+YXG50+Ver+4+23+14+WDM+for+windows+7+zip.html
I think this one is a con.  The primary link takes you to a sign up form for "binverse" and the other links go round and round to the same original link for the binverse signup...  for which you need a credit card.  I'm NOT paying someone like this for something that might not even exist.  :(

I tried loading the XP version in a VM on my Win7 64 bit test bed yesterday (actually a machine for my office I've been trying to get built for the last 12 months...) and it seems to load OK but I have no speakers connected to the system yet so while it seems to load OK I don't know if I actually get audio.  Will obviously have to run audio applications in the VM too which is less than ideal.

I'll get to the others as soon as I can.  The VSTi looks interesting given that VST seems to be the direction the industry is taking.

Hey Eric, how about a built in VST host?  Please???  ;)
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Playback

Reply #9 –
G'day Milton,
Quote
If you're on Vista, even that won't work. However, the other option you have is using the S-YXG50 VSTi with foobar2000. I'm doing this at the moment (being an ex-patriot of Winamp), and it works perfectly. This will work on both XP and Vista. There's also the aforementioned MidRadio player that has XP and Vista versions, and the unofficial SYXG2006LE VSTi which has the same sound ROM as the MidRadio, though both are XG Lite, and lack most of the sysex parameters that the S-YXG50 stuff has.

foobar2000 is a media player that supports VST through a component called, wait for it, MIDI decoder 1.110...  According to the blurb this decoder can play back MIDI through an in built synth or through VSTi's.

Overall, it looks to be a pretty functional gadget and could well replace WinAmp for many people...  It is not a synth in its own right and not useful to NWC as an output device.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Playback

Reply #10 –
OK, here's an update:

Windows Virtual Machine:
My Win7 Pro 64 bit system already had the Microsoft virtual machine and XP mode stuff installed (from a previous project) so I didn't need to install that part.  Ran the S-YXG50 installer and it ran flawlessly.  Rebooted the VM and it all looked good.  Installed a copy of NWC2 into the VM and voila, everything works.  This is a functional solution BUT to use the synth you need to install your music applications into the VM - might as well run XP really...

I even managed to access my Win7 box via remote desktop.  This was an interesting exercise indeed.  Setting the RDP client to bring sound from the host (win7) pc to my computer resulted in significant latency.  This was to be expected of course, BUT when I set the client to leave the sounds at the host PC and tried it was as if I was using the machines console instead of RDP.  Zero noticeable latency.  Of course, the sounds were coming from the cheap speakers I had connected for the test, but there was no discernible latency.  Of course, this would not work if I wasn't in the same room, but it does give some hope for remote support situations...


S-YXG50 VSTi:
Using my Vista testbed notebook (on which I created the VST for Dummies like me guide) I located and tested a copy of this VSTi.  It works fine, but I'm not convinced the sounds are as good as the full softsynth.  In fairness, this is probably a function of the speaker quality in the notebook.

Latency without ASIO4ALL is a problem.  I still need to test this on my 64 bit Win7 box...  One day...  ;)  If the speed of that machine is sufficient and I can go without ASIO4ALL I will be well pleased.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.