Note positioning bug

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Note positioning bug

2009-12-26 03:31 pm

I'm not if this has been brought up before or not..

The following construct displays incorrectly:

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|RestChord|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:Whole|Pos2:-3,-2
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

The quaver on the 4th space should be to the right of the semibreve on the second line.

Re: Note positioning bug

Reply #1 – 2009-12-26 04:28 pm

Yes it has been mentioned in a different guise. The problem is one of chord alignment. In this

Quote

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:0,1|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-3,-2
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-3,-2
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

the B should align with the G, and not the F. NW is lining up the upper chord head note (B) on the left hand member (F) of the lower chord instead of the head note (G). The same effect occurs in your rest chord which is similarly misaligned.

There's plenty of room for the F to be pulled to the left to correct the problem, but NW don't seem to want any risk of note crowding :-(

Re: Note positioning bug

Reply #2 – 2009-12-26 05:17 pm

Definitely a problem. In egregiously-bad looking situations I have resorted to layering to fix it, but that doesn't really work with restchords. You can't move a rest forward one position, so it remains misaligned. If you try to add a sliver of space before the rest with a text entry, the notes in the layered staff beneath it obediently move forward so that the rest can remain (mis)aligned. There may be a way to kludge this with the hidden restchord rests provided for in the 2.1 beta, but so far I haven't found it.

Bill

Re: Note positioning bug

Reply #3 – 2009-12-26 10:28 pm

Hi Lawrie,
Yes, you brought it up before <here>. See my comments there. My thoughts on it have not changed.

Hi Peter:
The problem of the 2^nd note in your clip is an insidious one. It can be fixed with a layer, and unlike Lawrie's RestChord example, it should be done using a layer. To me, the problem is as much finding them as fixing them. While playing Christmas music, I found (and stumbled) on several of them. I should fix them, but I keep putting it off.

I use special fonts to fix misaligned elements. NWC2 is getting better at letting the user hide the elements (rests, accidentals, noteheads) that it misaligns. Augmentation dots and articulations are my biggest problems as I often must replace them with text. The notes usually need to be muted and duplicated on a hidden, playback staff.

Quote from: Peter Edwards – 2009-12-26 04:28 pm

but NW don't seem to want any risk of note crowding :-(

Bingo! You've nailed my biggest problem with NWC2.

Hi Bill,

Quote from: William Ashworth – 2009-12-26 05:17 pm

You can't move a rest forward one position, so it remains misaligned.

But you can use this:

Quote from: Rest on steroids

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|RestChord|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Down,Lyric=Never,NoLegerLines,Muted|Dur2:Whole|Pos2:6z
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

It looks and plays like a Rest, but the RestChord will accept both 'Extra Accidental Spacing:' and 'Extra Note Spacing:'

Re: Note positioning bug

Reply #4 – 2009-12-29 02:35 pm

We will be addressing both of these in Beta 6.

This:

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|RestChord|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:Whole|Pos2:-3,-2
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

and this:

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:0,1|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-3,-2
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-3,-2
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Re: Note positioning bug

Reply #5 – 2009-12-29 03:49 pm

Quote from: NoteWorthy Online – 2009-12-29 02:35 pm

We will be addressing both of these in Beta 6.

I would hope for something like the attachments.

Re: Note positioning bug

Reply #6 – 2009-12-30 04:40 am

Rick, great idea with the "rest on steroids." I'll be using it.

Eric, thanks for working on this, but I don't think it's quite right yet. In the RestChord, I think the rest should line up with the upper note of the whole-note dyad, as in Rick's example; and in the chord with split stems running both directions, I think the stems should line up.

(The second split stem example looks great, though.)

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Note positioning bug

Reply #7 – 2009-12-30 04:48 am

G'day Eric,
thanks for the update mate - looking good, however I do agree with Bill's comments on the stem lineup. Still a bit to go I reckon.

Re: Note positioning bug

Reply #8 – 2009-12-30 04:51 am

Do you have an example that depicts where you think that stems should align? These changes are meant to specifically deal with the issue of notehead versus stem alignment. Stems aren't necessarily supposed to align, such as in Rick's first chord example above. Where possible, NWC 2.1 Beta 6 aligns the primary notes in the stem up and stem down notes, rather than the stems (as was done previously within split chords). See Peter Edward's post above for a description and example (quoted below):

Quote from: Peter Edwards – 2009-12-26 04:28 pm

In this

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:0,1|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-3,-2
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-3,-2
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
the B should align with the G, and not the F. NW is lining up the upper chord head note (B) on the left hand member (F) of the lower chord instead of the head note (G).

I can confirm that there is a remaining issue with multi-staff notehead alignment in conjunction with these new changes. This pair of clips, entered into two staves, depicts the issue:

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Chord|Dur:Half|Pos:-1,0,1|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:Half|Pos2:-3
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:-6|Opts:Stem=Down
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

The half note in the bottom staff misaligns with the split stem chord in the staff above it.

Re: Note positioning bug

Reply #9 – 2009-12-30 05:56 am

Quote from: NoteWorthy Online

The half note in the bottom staff misaligns with the split stem chord in the staff above it.

Right. The half note's stem should line up with the downward pointing stem, not the upward pointing one, on the upper staff.

Unfortunately, I know of no hard and fast rules for this stuff. We're probably going to have to continue to resort to layering in some cases, however the program aligns notes. I just checked a couple of printed scores and found chords containing both downward-and-upward split stems aligned both ways. (In one score, the stems aligned; in the other, the left-of-stem notes in the upper dyad aligned with the right-of-stem notes in the lower chords.) I think what is actually correct often depends on context, and on how clearly the composer wants to separate the voices.

Just how tricky it can be is shown by this example:

Quote

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:-3,-1|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-4
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:-4,-3|Opts:Stem=Down|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-1
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

In my opinion, the first chord is wrong: the stems should align. But the second chord is right. And the only difference is whether the second chord member attaches to the note below it or the note above it.

Just wanted to muddy the waters....;-)

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Note positioning bug

Reply #10 – 2009-12-30 06:05 am

Quote from: William Ashworth – 2009-12-30 05:56 am

Unfortunately, I know of no hard and fast rules for this stuff.

Where possible, NWC makes an effort to follow Alfred's Essential Dictionary of Music Notation. You can find various references to it here in the forum, but I think it all started with Andrew Purdam back in 1998:

Just bought this fabulous book!
https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=357

Re: Note positioning bug

Reply #11 – 2009-12-30 06:23 am

G'day Eric,
this is a bit of a tough call... I spent some time in my Alfred's trying to check this and couldn't find anything specific enough - so I had a look online and google let me down this time - still couldn't find anything helpful...

FWIW

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:-1,0|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-4,-3
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:-4,-3,-1,0|Opts:Stem=Up
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-4,-3
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

I kind of expected the first chord to be similar to the second, but in hindsight such an alignment could lead to some ambiguity as to which voice is which so I've changed my tune

I reckon the 3rd chord looks correct.

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|RestChord|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:Whole|Pos2:-3,-2
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

This one is less obvious to me. I'm simply not sure if the rest should be above the leftmost or rightmost note in the dyad.

Re: Note positioning bug

Reply #12 – 2009-12-30 06:40 am

Quote from: Lawrie Pardy – 2009-12-30 06:23 am

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|RestChord|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:Whole|Pos2:-3,-2
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
This one is less obvious to me. I'm simply not sure if the rest should be above the leftmost or rightmost note in the dyad.

Actually , changed my mind on the one. The rest should be above the rightmost head. If there was a chord interval of a 3rd there instead of a 2nd, the stem (if it was there) would be down, and the noteheads would be on the right. I reckon that makes the right side of a stem down chord the default head alignment.

Re: Note positioning bug

Reply #13 – 2009-12-30 06:53 am

Quote from: NoteWorthy Online

Where possible, NWC makes an effort to follow Alfred's Essential Dictionary of Music Notation

I know. See my comments in this topic.

That being said, you have to follow something, and Alfred's is as good (and bad) as any book of rules can be for what is essentially an art form.

In the example Lawrie just posted, the first chord still looks wrong to me. The third one looks correct. Perhaps this is because the third chord has beamed eighth notes against quarter notes, while the first chord is all quarter notes.

Context might make a difference. It might well be that, in a context that clearly showed two voices, the first chord would look right. I dunno. What I seem to observe (emphasizing seem to) in printed music is that, when notes are a second apart in different voices, if the notes are of equal value the stems line up and if the notes are not of equal value the stems do not line up. That accounts for the differences in the two scores I mentioned earlier in this thread. It also accounts for how the chords in Lawrie's example look to me. Whether or not it is a useful rule to follow, unfortunately I have no idea.

Cheers (I think)

Bill

Re: Note positioning bug

Reply #14 – 2009-12-30 09:02 am

Quote from: NoteWorthy Online – 2009-12-30 04:51 am

Do you have an example that depicts where you think that stems should align?

Here is is a nasty little clip:

Quote

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:1,2|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-2,-1
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:-2,-1|Opts:Stem=Down|Dur2:4th|Pos2:0,1
|Chord|Dur:4th,Dotted|Pos:1,2|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:4th,Dotted|Pos2:-2,-1
|Chord|Dur:4th,Dotted|Pos:-2,-1|Opts:Stem=Down|Dur2:4th,Dotted|Pos2:0,1
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

NWC2 and NWC2.1 Beta 6 get different parts of this wrong. The second measure of the attachment shows how I think it should look. It would need yet another staff to get it to sound right. IMO, I ought to be able to get this to look and sound right using 2 staves.

Re: Note positioning bug

Reply #15 – 2009-12-30 09:11 am

I fully concur with Rick on this one.

Re: Note positioning bug

Reply #16 – 2009-12-30 11:02 am

After a bit of thought, so do I. My doubt was the instance where the head notes are a second apart but going back to first principles soon sorted that out.

I think the alignment problems (on two staves, above) arise because the assumption is made that the left hand note is the basis of the chord position, whereas it should be the head note of the chord which can be left, middle or right depending on the circumstances. And it is the head notes which should be aligned on each stave.

If there is a note to the left of the head note then it should take space from the preceding note/chord so that (where possible) the basic note spacing is that of the head notes.

And the head notes at a second anomaly (which gave me pause for thought) arises because NW doesn't handle a simple second with opposite stem directions properly. The stems in this instance should align. And it is then easy to add seconds to each chord member to produce Rick's result.

There is still a problem in this case of deciding which head note determines the position of the chord. From a very limited set of examples it looks like the bottom chord has precedence.

Re: Note positioning bug

Reply #17 – 2009-12-30 12:02 pm

Quote from: Peter Edwards – 2009-12-30 11:02 am

And the head notes at a second anomaly (which gave me pause for thought) arises because NW doesn't handle a simple second with opposite stem directions properly.

Yes, the Beta 6 treatment of this:

Quote

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down|Dur2:Half|Pos2:1
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

will give the newbies endless grief.

Re: Note positioning bug

Reply #18 – 2009-12-30 04:19 pm

Peter's explanation and Rick's examples are cogent, and I will go along.

Bill

Re: Note positioning bug

Reply #19 – 2010-01-01 07:06 pm

Hope you guys did not get too used to the approach in Beta 6, because a totally reworked approach is now available in Beta 7.

Re: Note positioning bug

Reply #20 – 2010-01-01 10:27 pm

Unless I'm missing something, I reckon that's just about perfect. The only things I've found that need attention are:

a) Augmentation dots - should all align vertically AND the should only be one per space - I know this was looked at before with some difficulty...

and

b) Combined articulations on split stem chords seem to not work

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:4th,Staccato|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up
|Note|Dur:4th,Accent|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

and

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:4th,Staccato|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem
|Note|Dur:4th,Accent|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,ArticulationsOnStem
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

if created as a split stem chord end up with only one articulation:
You get this:

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Chord|Dur:4th,Staccato|Pos:0o|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:4th|Pos2:0o|Color:0|Visibility:Default
|Chord|Dur:4th,Staccato|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:4th|Pos2:0
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

instead of this:

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Chord|Dur:4th,Staccato,Accent|Pos:0o|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:4th|Pos2:0o|Color:0|Visibility:Default
|Chord|Dur:4th,Staccato,Accent|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:4th|Pos2:0
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Re: Note positioning bug

Reply #21 – 2010-01-22 10:41 am

Quote from: Lawrie Pardy – 2010-01-01 10:27 pm

a) Augmentation dots - should all align vertically

IMO, this statement is a bit too broad. I've spent a bit of time looking at piano music from respected publishers.
The rules seem to be:

augmentations dots on the same stem align vertically
if a split stem chord forms an interval of a 2^nd at the split, all dots align

These were taken from some G. Schirmer published music, and appear with great consistency:

Quote

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Chord|Dur:4th,Dotted|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:4th,Dotted|Pos2:0
|Chord|Dur:Half,Dotted|Pos:1,2|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:Half,Dotted|Pos2:-5
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

I think the reason for the second rule is that, to do otherwise would either obscure one of the dots or cause too much horizontal separation.

Re: Note positioning bug

Reply #22 – 2010-01-22 04:34 pm

While checking out Rick's observation, I ran into this chord, in an Allegro Giocoso by Leo Kraft:

Quote

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Chord|Dur:4th,Dotted,Accent|Pos:#-3,#-2,0,3|Opts:Stem=Up
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

In NWC, all the dots line up. In the original, the dot on the F# lines up with the dot on the G#, but the dots on the upper dyad line up with the head of the G#. I frankly don't know which looks better. The collection I found this in was published in 1963 by Lawson-Gould, which at that time was an imprint of G. Schirmer.

Bill

Re: Note positioning bug

Reply #23 – 2010-01-22 09:07 pm

The attached file will give you an idea of the difference. The first chord is the way NWC currently lines up the dots. The second is they are lined up in the Leo Kraft piece. It's a kind of rough and dirty job using layers and text entries, so the upper two dots are a bit small, but they're in the right position....if this is the right position.

Bill

Re: Note positioning bug

Reply #24 – 2012-07-04 08:12 pm

Quote from: Rick G. – 2009-12-29 03:49 pm

I would hope for something like the attachments.

And it does.

Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.5,Single)
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-3,-2
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar|Style:Double
|RestChord|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:Whole|Pos2:-3,-2
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up
|Spacer|Width:100
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up
|Spacer|Width:200
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up
|Bar|Style:Double
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End