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fermata placement bug (?)

Hi all -

I'm doing parts for a score that includes a lot of whole-measure rests, some with fermatas. Whenever one of these "fermata'd" rests falls on the first measure of a system, the fermata is misaligned forward by roughly its own width, and ends up sitting over empty space someplace in the second half of the bar.

I've tried all the placement tricks I can think of, including (of course) all combinations of the "expression placement" parameters, but also creating a layered staff with invisible rests of varying sizes and placing the fermata over one of these. Inevitably, the fermata is offset from the visible rest I want it to affect, either forward or backward.

This description relates to a single-line part (flute, in this case). It also shows up in multistave scores, but in those, changing the expression placement parameters from centered/at next note to left/best fit forward solves the problem. On a single-line part, this kludge no longer works. Has anyone found something that does?

Cheers,

Bill

Re: fermata placement bug (?)

Reply #1 –
I've experience this before. I just can't seem to solve it too on one of my songs that has the same situation as you.

Oh... My "Winamp" would not play the breath marks or fermata, it completely ignored it!

Re: fermata placement bug (?)

Reply #2 –
Here is a not very elegant solution to the problem.
It involves invisible bar lines with certain ones excluded from the bar count if you are using bar numbers.

Quote
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|TimeSig|Signature:4/4
|Bar|XBarCnt:Y|Visibility:Never
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:2|Pos:7|Justify:Right|Placement:AtNextNote
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:2|Pos:7|Placement:AtNextNote
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:2|Pos:7|Placement:AtNextNote
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:2|Pos:7|Placement:AtNextNote
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:2|Pos:7|Placement:AtNextNote
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:2|Pos:7|Placement:AtNextNote
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:2|Pos:7|Placement:AtNextNote
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:2|Pos:7|Placement:AtNextNote
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar|SysBreak:Y
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Bar|Visibility:Never
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:2|Pos:7|Placement:AtNextNote
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:2|Pos:7|Placement:AtNextNote
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:2|Pos:7|Placement:AtNextNote
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:2|Pos:7|Placement:AtNextNote
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:2|Pos:7|Placement:AtNextNote
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:2|Pos:7|Placement:AtNextNote
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

But I agree, this is a bug that should be fixed if possible.
Rich.

Re: fermata placement bug (?)

Reply #3 –
You are close, Rich. Put an invisible bar line before each whole measure rest. No need to exclude from bar count. But you must force a system break on the visible bar line if the system needs to break there. Also, fermatas should always, always, always, be centered at next note/bar. I concur, this is a bug.

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:F#
|TimeSig|Signature:4/4
|Bar|Visibility:Never
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:0|Pos:7|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|Bar|Visibility:Never
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:0|Pos:7|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|Bar|Visibility:Never
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:0|Pos:7|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|Bar|Visibility:Never
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:0|Pos:7|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|Bar|Visibility:Never
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:0|Pos:7|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|Bar|Visibility:Never
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:0|Pos:7|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|Bar|Visibility:Never
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:0|Pos:7|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar|SysBreak:Y
|Bar|Visibility:Never
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:0|Pos:7|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|Bar|Visibility:Never
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:0|Pos:7|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Rest|Dur:Whole
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Kristopher:
The issue has been discussed to death. Fermatas and breath marks are not exported to MIDI. The MIDI specification lacks a reliable means of defining them short of inserting a bunch of very confusing Time signatures.
Registered user since 1996

Re: fermata placement bug (?)

Reply #4 –
Thanks, Rich and Rick (especially Rick). Placing an invisible barline before the problem fermata and then forcing a system break on the barline immediately preceding it works. (Without the forced break, it fails. Interesting.) That's a very easy kludge, so I guess this isn't high priority. But it's a gnawing little bugger, just the same.

Kristopher, you'll note that NWC exports to MIDI rather than saving to MIDI. That's because NWC playback does some things that MIDI can't. You lose a few things during the export process, so it's not a true save. If you want completely accurate playback in another program, you'll have to record the output from your sound card to .wav or .mp3 as you play it in NWC (there are a number of programs that will do this).

Cheers,

Bill

Re: fermata placement bug (?)

Reply #5 –
Quote from: Rick G. –
But you must force a system break on the visible bar line if the system needs to break there.

I did put the system break in my version - just forgot to say it.  I think in my version, I needed to exclude the bar count because of where I put the invisible bar line in comparison to a clef that I entered for the beginning of the next line. Your version removes the need for that and is more elegant (if elegant can be applied to such a fix !)

Cheers.
Rich.

Re: fermata placement bug (?)

Reply #6 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
it occurred to me that another parameter on barlines could be useful...  A system "Do NOT break".  If this was available and set on the double barline prior to the key change then the keychange should stay where it belongs.
Lawrie's idea would seem to have some use here. It might also have some use for those things like breath marks and dynamics that you want to align vertically across all the staves in a system.
Registered user since 1996

Re: fermata placement bug (?)

Reply #7 –
If it is to be sorted out then this instance needs to be dealt with too.

Quote
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:C
|TimeSig|Signature:4/4
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:0|Pos:-9|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|TempoVariance|Style:Fermata|Pause:0|Pos:9|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|RestChord|Dur:Whole|Opts:Stem=Down,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:Whole|Pos2:3
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Re: fermata placement bug (?)

Reply #9 –
Pretty obvious, what's the problem, I thought. Then I copied the clip, and (am I going mad?) that's not the same as the original!

So do the following:
  • Create a new file in NWC
  • Insert Clef, Key and Time Signatures
  • Insert the two fermatas, one above and one below the staff
  • Insert a semibreve rest
  • Chord it with a semibreve note
  • Look at Print Preview!
  • Add a new staff and copy the first staff to it.
  • Look at Print Preview!
  • Save and re-open the file
  • Look at Print Preview!

In fact the rest chord is treated correctly in the first preview (except for the pause marks), with the note at the left of the bar and the rest in the middle, but why does it change when it's copied or saved?

Re: fermata placement bug (?)

Reply #10 –
Not so clear after all. Once saved and reopened, the problem goes away. Nasty ...

Not even fermata related. Copy this:
Quote
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:C
|TimeSig|Signature:Common
|Text|Text:"\|"|Font:StaffBold|Pos:7|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote|Color:1
|Rest|Dur:Whole|Opts:Stem=Down
|Bar
|Text|Text:"\|"|Font:StaffBold|Pos:7|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote|Color:1
|Rest|Dur:Whole|Opts:Stem=Down
|Bar
|Text|Text:"\|"|Font:StaffBold|Pos:7|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote|Color:1
|RestChord|Dur:Whole|Opts:Stem=Down,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:Whole|Pos2:2
|Bar
|Text|Text:"\|"|Font:StaffBold|Pos:7|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote|Color:1
|RestChord|Dur:Whole|Opts:Stem=Down,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:Whole|Pos2:2
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
and use Ctrl+Enter to make the first 2 measures look like the last 2. Then try Print Preview.
Registered user since 1996

Re: fermata placement bug (?)

Reply #11 –
Seems to be a problem with center:at next note/bar, rather than with any specific notation.

And it's ephemeral. Try this: Follow the steps Rick suggests, and then - without saving - copy m. 3-4 and paste them into m. 2-3, being careful not to copy over the clef or the key sig. No change at all in the appearance of the editor. But check out the print preview.....

Now, try hitting the undo button until you're back to the original form. Check out print preview. The displacement problem is present again. Until you hit redo. On the very first hit of the redo button - you're just redoing your first <cntrl><enter> here, you're not redoing the paste - the print preview straightens right out.

Weird and weirder.

Bill

Re: fermata placement bug (?)

Reply #12 –
This is a problem with the audits. It will be fixed in the first update to NWC 2.0.

Re: fermata placement bug (?)

Reply #13 –
Quote from: NoteWorthy Online –
This is a problem with the audits. It will be fixed in the first update to NWC 2.0.
still awaiting a fix.

Seems to be related to this problem:
Quote from: Rick G. –
In the attached file, Placement.nwc, none of the text preserves width. All the blue lines have the properties: Centered, AtNextNote/Bar. As can be seen from print preview, NWC2 often hasn't a clue as to where this is for a whole measure rest (WMR). All the blue lines should be centered over the whole measure rests, as in measure 8 (m8).
Registered user since 1996

Re: fermata placement bug (?)

Reply #14 –
This appears to be fixed as of NWC 2.1
Registered user since 1996