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Topic: Importing 6/8 and 3/4 midi files (Read 13934 times) previous topic - next topic

Importing 6/8 and 3/4 midi files

How do I import jigs and waltzes? All those midi files I import automatically come in as 4/4 which takes forever to convert to the right time signature.

-- Rich --

Re: Importing 6/8 and 3/4 midi files

Reply #1 –
G'day Rich,
There are tools that allow you to edit the MIDI directly, or by export to text file and then importing back to MID.  Using these it should be possible to insert a corect time sig. in the midi files before you import them to NWC.

This: (MIDI2TXT) http://www.softpedia.com/progDownload/MIDI2TEXT-Download-81112.html will convert your MIDI to text, while this: (TXT2MIDI) http://www.softpedia.com/progDownload/txt2midi-Download-81115.html will convert it back after you've edited it.

Export your MIDI file with midi2txt.  Edit with your favourite editor, what you are looking for is a section like this:

Code: [Select · Download]
mtrk  // track 1
  trackname "Vocal with Piano Accompaniment Template"
  text "By <Name>"
  copyright "Copyright \xa9 <Year> by <Name>"
  copyright "All Rights Reserved"
  text "Generated by NoteWorthy Composer"
  tact 6 / 8 24 8

end mtrk

Note the "  tact 6 / 8 24 8" line.  This is where the time sig. is set IF it is included in the MIDI.  The one shown is for 6/8, your source MIDIs may be 4/4 even though the song is really 6/8.  NWC will assume 4/4 if this line is missing.

Once corrected, reimport the text file using txt2midi.  I don't know enough to tell you exactly what the other 2 numbers are but FWIW I found the following in a GNMIDI PDF...:

Code: [Select · Download]
| "tact" number "/" number number number // tactnom / (2 ^^ tactdenom) clicks/beat 32th/beat

When I was testing stuff to formulate this reply, I found it didn't matter which time sig's I was testing the "24 8" part remained the same.  I checked several MIDI's I hadn't created so I reckon that in general these numbers are a safe bet.  Work on copies then it doesn't matter if something breaks.

Note that these utilities are DOS based and do not understand long file names, so it's best to keep the names to 8 or less characters. 
Syntax is: MIDI2TXT filename.mid filename.txt

Once the time signature is in the MIDI file, NWC will recognise and import it correctly.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Importing 6/8 and 3/4 midi files

Reply #2 –
OK, got some more information on "tact"...


Time Signature

FF 58 04 nn dd cc bb

Time signature is expressed as 4 numbers. nn and dd represent the "numerator" and "denominator" of the signature as notated on sheet music. The denominator is a negative power of 2: 2 = quarter note, 3 = eighth, etc.

The cc expresses the number of MIDI clocks in a metronome click.

The bb parameter expresses the number of notated 32nd notes in a MIDI quarter note (24 MIDI clocks). This event allows a program to relate what MIDI thinks of as a quarter, to something entirely different.

For example, 6/8 time with a metronome click every 3 eighth notes and 24 clocks per quarter note would be the following event:

FF 58 04 06 03 18 08

NOTE: If there are no time signature events in a MIDI file, then the time signature is assumed to be 4/4.

In a format 0 file, the time signatures changes are scattered throughout the one MTrk. In format 1, the very first MTrk should consist of only the time signature (and tempo) events so that it could be read by some device capable of generating a "tempo map". It is best not to place MIDI events in this MTrk. In format 2, each MTrk should begin with at least one initial time signature (and tempo) event.


So, the "tact" line is Numerator / Denominator "MIDI clocks per metronome click (MIDI 4th?)" and "32nds in a MIDI 4th note"

I just did some further testing - simple files only - with different tempos and found that the last 2 parameters were always 24 and 8 so I reckon you'd be pretty safe using these regardless for generating imports into NWC.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Importing 6/8 and 3/4 midi files

Reply #3 –
Another way to do this <here>.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Importing 6/8 and 3/4 midi files

Reply #4 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
There are tools that allow you to edit the MIDI directly, or by export to text file and then importing back to MID.  Using these it should be possible to insert a corect time sig. in the midi files before you import them to NWC.

This: (MIDI2TXT) http://www.softpedia.com/progDownload/MIDI2TEXT-Download-81112.html will convert your MIDI to text, while this: (TXT2MIDI) http://www.softpedia.com/progDownload/txt2midi-Download-81115.html will convert it back after you've edited it.

Unfortunately I can't seem to be able to download those files from that site. I can't figure out why it doesn't work, but it doesn't. I Googled around a bit to find that I *could* download them from here.

Now I have a problem in that there is no code as you describe in the text version of the midi file I'm trying to correct time sig of. Just columns of numbers with the occasional square.

-- Rich --
 

Re: Importing 6/8 and 3/4 midi files

Reply #5 –
Quote from: Rick G. –
Another way to do this <here>.

Whew - that sounds incredibly difficult but as the text converting thing didn't work I tried your method here... and I can't seem to get it to work either. In it's original state the midi file sounds like a jig but opens in NWC as 4/4 with zillions of 4-flag notes (64ths?) even though I tell NWC to import with the longest duration notes 1/8th.

So I redid the time sig as 6/8 and tell it to be in G maj. I can't figure out how the "tenuto" affects anything. It seems to add a line above the notes but doesn't make it sound any different.

I resave as mid, open again and all staves open as 6/8 but yet it NOW sounds as 4/4, still with zillions of 4-flag notes and incredibly discordant and mushy.

I'm really stymied!

-- Rich --

Re: Importing 6/8 and 3/4 midi files

Reply #6 –
G'dqay Rich,

Quote from: ecotectoo –
Now I have a problem in that there is no code as you describe in the text version of the midi file I'm trying to correct time sig of. Just columns of numbers with the occasional square.

Yup, that's the point.  You get a 4/4 import because there is no tact line, so you get to create it.  Find some code in the text file near the top that contains something like this:

mtrk  // track 1
  trackname "Vocal with Piano Accompaniment Template"
  text "By <Name>"
  copyright "Copyright \xa9 <Year> by <Name>"
  copyright "All Rights Reserved"
  text "Generated by NoteWorthy Composer"

end mtrk

and insert the line:
  tact 6 / 8 24 8

The text in quotes is not really important and the lines probably won't all exist, but you should have at least one mtrk marker followed by text and then an  end mtrk.  Just stick the above line in between the markers, export back to MIDI and try the NWC import.

As for the 4 flag notes, you could try highlighting everything after you've imported to NWC and pressing <+> a couple of times.  Each press will double the duration of the notes and rests.  Of course, this will muck up the timing and the barlines so an "Audit Barlines" will be in order, as will a faster metronome mark.

Ricks export/import to from MIDI via NWC can help here too.  I reckon I wouldn't bother with the Audit Barlines, but get the note durations and metronome mark "right", export to MIDI and reimport.  Barlines should then be OK
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Importing 6/8 and 3/4 midi files

Reply #7 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
Yup, that's the point.  You get a 4/4 import because there is no tact line, so you get to create it.  Find some code in the text file near the top that contains something like this:

mtrk  // track 1
  trackname "Vocal with Piano Accompaniment Template"
  text "By <Name>"
  copyright "Copyright \xa9 <Year> by <Name>"
  copyright "All Rights Reserved"
  text "Generated by NoteWorthy Composer"

end mtrk

But there *is* nothing that looks like that. This is what the text file looks like:
<Image Link>
Also... what does "tact" mean/do?

Quote
As for the 4 flag notes, you could try highlighting everything after you've imported to NWC and pressing <+> a couple of times.  Each press will double the duration of the notes and rests.

My NWC seems to operate very differently. When I select stuff and press the +  key the notes get smaller and closer together while the staff stays the same size. Each time I hit the + key it alternates back and forth between regular and squished. The value of the notes and rests remains the same.

-- Rich --

Re: Importing 6/8 and 3/4 midi files

Reply #8 –
G'day Rich,
Quote from: ecotectoo –
But there *is* nothing that looks like that. This is what the text file looks like:
<Image Link>
Also... what does "tact" mean/do?

You must have downloaded something different is the only thing I can think of.  Please try the original links again:

This: (MIDI2TXT) http://www.softpedia.com/progDownload/MIDI2TEXT-Download-81112.html will convert your MIDI to text, while this: (TXT2MIDI) http://www.softpedia.com/progDownload/txt2midi-Download-81115.html will convert it back after you've edited it.

But look for a link that says "External Mirror" and click it for the download.

I don't know what tact stands for but I know it contains the time signature information as reported in posts above.  Note that it is a text representation of part of the binary MIDI file.

Quote
My NWC seems to operate very differently. When I select stuff and press the +  key the notes get smaller and closer together while the staff stays the same size. Each time I hit the + key it alternates back and forth between regular and squished. The value of the notes and rests remains the same.

Sounds like you're holding the <Alt> key down while you're pressing the <+> key...  That changes the display font size in the editor...  The <+> key on its' own changes duration.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Importing 6/8 and 3/4 midi files

Reply #9 –
Quote from: ecotectoo –
I'm really stymied!
Perhaps you could provide a link to the MIDI file.
If that is not possible, just email it to me.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Importing 6/8 and 3/4 midi files

Reply #10 –
Keyboards can act in most peculiar ways. A strange "status change" takes place when you hit Alt and Shift together. You will see that some keys now act differently. Hit Alt and Shift again - the effects will be undone.

Don't know if this is happens on every computer - but it could be a cause.
cheers, Rob.

Re: Importing 6/8 and 3/4 midi files

Reply #11 –
Quote from: ecotectoo –

My NWC seems to operate very differently. When I select stuff and press the +  key the notes get smaller and closer together while the staff stays the same size. Each time I hit the + key it alternates back and forth between regular and squished. The value of the notes and rests remains the same.


The other possibility is that you are actually creating grace notes with the "=" key instead of the "+" key, which requires <Shift> to be held down at the same time as the += key.

Re: Importing 6/8 and 3/4 midi files

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
You must have downloaded something different is the only thing I can think of.  Please try the original links again:

This: (MIDI2TXT) http://www.softpedia.com/progDownload/MIDI2TEXT-Download-81112.html will convert your MIDI to text, while this: (TXT2MIDI) http://www.softpedia.com/progDownload/txt2midi-Download-81115.html will convert it back after you've edited it.

But look for a link that says "External Mirror" and click it for the download.

Maybe that was why I was unable to download it the first time. I *was* able to download it using the mirror but when I unzipped and clicked on the exe file a little window opened with a black background and white text that went flying by and then it disappeared. I tried several times but could hardly see what was going on. Nothing remained after it closed. I can't seem to find any "program" of it anywhere.

The other txt2midi I found opened a small window that said "load midi file here" and then it converted it to text. Pretty simple. What's with the file one the mirror site and why did it act like that?

Quote
Sounds like you're holding the <Alt> key down while you're pressing the <+> key...  That changes the display font size in the editor...  The <+> key on its' own changes duration.

Nope. I just tried it again. After I select some notes (or the entire staff of notes) and press the + key all by itself the notes get smaller (their value remains the same, they just appear littler). When I hold down the alt while hitting the + key... nothing happens. When I hold down the shift key and hit the + key the notes duration changes to twice as long - ah! That's the one that works!

-- Rich --

Re: Importing 6/8 and 3/4 midi files

Reply #13 –
G'day Rich,
Quote from: ecotectoo –
Maybe that was why I was unable to download it the first time. I *was* able to download it using the mirror but when I unzipped and clicked on the exe file a little window opened with a black background and white text that went flying by and then it disappeared. I tried several times but could hardly see what was going on. Nothing remained after it closed. I can't seem to find any "program" of it anywhere.

My apologies mate, that is the way it's supposed to behave if double clicked on.  It is giving usage information and since the command is completed Windows is closing the window.  I wrongfully assumed you would understand about a DOS command.  The easiest way to use the command is to open a "Command" window.  On XP click |Start|Run|, enter the text "cmd" (no quotes) in the dialogue and press <Enter> or click <OK>.

This will open a command prompt window where you can "change directory" to the location of the downloaded MIDI tools.  E.G. if you extracted the files to, say, C:\MIDITools, you would enter the command: "CD \miditools" and press <Enter>.  No quotes of course, and there is a space between the "CD" and the "\"...  This will change your prompt to read "C:\miditools>".  It also makes that your current location in the directory structure.  From here you can enter the required commands:  E.G. "MIDI2TXT source.mid dest.txt <Enter>"  This will create a text file you can edit and re import wit a command like "TXT2MIDI dest.txt new.mid <Enter>" - again no quotes, of course.  Keep the filenames to 8 characters or less. 

Note that the filenames and commands are not case sensitive.  I have also assumed that you have copies of the MIDI to be worked on in the SAME directory as the tools.

Once the conversions are done you can close the command window by either typeing "exit" and pressing <Enter> OR by simply clicking on the usual "X" in the upper right corner.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Importing 6/8 and 3/4 midi files

Reply #14 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
I wrongfully assumed you would understand about a DOS command.

I don't remember the site saying that it was a DOS thing. How can one tell the difference (except by trying to run it)?

Quote
The easiest way to use the command is to open a "Command" window.  On XP click |Start|Run|, enter the text "cmd" (no quotes) in the dialogue....

Sheesh - talk about complicated. I'm going to pass. There's no way I can get my brain to do that. I'll just manually enter the stuff into NWC.

Is there something wrong with the Midi2Text application I used? It's on this page or can be downloaded directly with this link.

The file I'm trying to jiggify is here.

-- Rich --

Re: Importing 6/8 and 3/4 midi files

Reply #15 –
G'day Rich,
Quote from: ecotectoo –
I don't remember the site saying that it was a DOS thing. How can one tell the difference (except by trying to run it)?
actually, I did mention it in my first message, but you're right, the easiest way to tell is to just run it...

Quote
Sheesh - talk about complicated. I'm going to pass. There's no way I can get my brain to do that. I'll just manually enter the stuff into NWC.

Your choice of course, but it really isn't hard, just sounds that way...

Quote
Is there something wrong with the Midi2Text application I used? It's on this page or can be downloaded directly with this link.

Yep, it doesn't export all the stuff we're interested in.

Quote
The file I'm trying to jiggify is here.

Had a quick "sticky" - looks like it's been "humanised" so it won't import terribly well.  Those hemidemisemiquavers (64ths or 4 flag notes) you referred to import that way regardless of 4/4 or 6/8 import.  I might add that the note length alteration I suggested earlier is not appropriate for this piece.  I have tried it and the rest of the piece fits tolerable well.  When I checked the text file export from MIDI2TXT the was in fact a tact line for 4/4 there. 

I think you're a bit out of luck unless you find something that imports MIDI better than NWC.  Then you might be able to export to MusicXML and using NWC2 and a user tool import it that way.  BTW, have you registered for the NWC2 beta?  If not I reckon the added features are well worth it and this will give you access to user tools, as well as the ability to "save as" NWC1 format if you want to work in that format too.

I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Importing 6/8 and 3/4 midi files

Reply #16 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
Had a quick "sticky" - looks like it's been "humanised" so it won't import terribly well. 
Understatement of the year. The file has been deliberately "randomized" to make it impossible to sensibly modify.
Some notes are shorter than a 512th note. What passes for a bass line: "Diaphone" doesn't have notes that start on any regular basis. The file says that it is 480 clicks/quarter note, but notes don't regularly start at that multiple.

Best to give up on this one. Life is too short.

If you really want to notate: Blaze Away - March and Two-Step - 1901 - Abe Holzmann
a better starting point is <here>.

Registered user since 1996

Re: Importing 6/8 and 3/4 midi files

Reply #17 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
BTW, have you registered for the NWC2 beta?  If not I reckon the added features are well worth it and this will give you access to user tools, as well as the ability to "save as" NWC1 format if you want to work in that format too.

I've given NWC2 some thought - occasionally - but I've heard other folks say that NWC is dead, and little work is being done on NWC2, that it'll never come out... plus there other programs are currently easier to use (rather that wait for NWC to get it's act together). I've tried a few of the others out and am very pleased with them - BUT - stick with NWC as I've been at it for the last decade or so and am pretty comfortable with it (despite it's limitations) AND have a large amount of notation in it that I don't want to have to redo. The costs and learning curve of new software is also a significant deterrent.

I just checked out the "tools"... which mean coding/scripting? I *really* no nothing about coding.

-- Rich --
I did check out

Re: Importing 6/8 and 3/4 midi files

Reply #18 –
I gave Blaze Away in NWC format. If you want it - send me an email.
Rich.
Rich.

Re: Importing 6/8 and 3/4 midi files

Reply #19 –
Quote from: Rick G. –
Best to give up on this one. Life is too short.

If you really want to notate: Blaze Away - March and Two-Step - 1901 - Abe Holzmann
a better starting point is <here>.

Yup, that version is history. The link you suggest is a simplified version for piano and is missing a lot of the inner voicing and other interesting stuff. I'm looking more for something like this.

-- Rich --

Re: Importing 6/8 and 3/4 midi files

Reply #20 –
G'day Rich,

Quote from: ecotectoo –
...plus there other programs are currently easier to use...

I've never found any.  All the other products I've tried don't come anywhere near the ease of use of the NWC user interface IMHO.  Yes, there are limitations and stuff I'd like to see which is why I've tried others, but the UI gets me back every time.

Quote
I just checked out the "tools"... which mean coding/scripting? I *really* no nothing about coding.

You don't really need to know how to write any code.  There are already many tools out there that between them will do most of what anyone seems to want.  If you identify something you'd like a tool for and can't create it you'll find there are people who are happy to try and help.  Especially if they can see the value for themselves.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Importing 6/8 and 3/4 midi files

Reply #21 –
Quote
I've heard other folks say that NWC is dead, and little work is being done on NWC2, that it'll never come out

Well, it often feels that way as we wait for the next beta release. But, actually, NWC2 is out. The betas are rock-solid: you don't need to be a geek to use them, they are in no way incomplete, and you don't risk damaging anything. Many improvements over 1.x, and the product continues to improve with each release, which is why it's still beta. It is far from dead. Sounds like you have a lot of effort invested in NWC 1.x files. It will definitely be worth your while to move to NWC2.

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Importing 6/8 and 3/4 midi files

Reply #22 –
Quote from: William Ashworth –
Well, it often feels that way as we wait for the next beta release. But, actually, NWC2 is out. The betas are rock-solid.... It will definitely be worth your while to move to NWC2.

Sounds pretty good! I'll go get it - but it'll be awhile as I had bought mine before they came out with that CD with the beta2 unlock stuff on it. So I have to buy one... and WAIT until it comes by snail-mail in order to use it to get the NWC2. Argh!

-- Rich --

Re: Importing 6/8 and 3/4 midi files

Reply #23 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –

I've never found any.  All the other products I've tried don't come anywhere near the ease of use of the NWC user interface IMHO.  Yes, there are limitations and stuff I'd like to see which is why I've tried others, but the UI gets me back every time.


Absolutely. NOTHING comes even close to NWC,

Leigh