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Topic: Transpose Bass -> treble clef??? (Read 19648 times) previous topic - next topic

Transpose Bass -> treble clef???

I primarily use NWC to transpose music for my brass quintet. It is a brass band quintet with Eb altohorn, Bb treble clef Euphonium and EEb Tuba. Instead of F Horn C trom in Bass clef and C tuba in Bass clef.

I can perform the transposition for the horn parts, but the shift from bass to treble clefs seems to be a case of selecting the whole stave and ctrl>shft>down arrow to move the notes into the right place. sharpen the key signature twice and change the clef. Then playing both parts together ( Bass clef and treble clef with the appropriate midi transposition) auditing the part audially to pick up the accidentals that havent changed.

Is there an easier way?

Cheers

Sergio Marshall

Re: Transpose Bass -> treble clef???

Reply #1 –
No, I haven't found an easier way. I ran into a similar dilemma when converting imported midi files for use with viola (alto) clef.

Regarding wrong notes, here's a hint: select TOOLS, Force Accidentals before doing any transposition or key signature changes. Worked for me.

Re: Transpose Bass -> treble clef???

Reply #2 –
Yes, that is OK for changing clefs for a C instrument to a C instrument. But I have the added hassle of moving to Bb or Eb instruments. I force accidentals but the manual change in key signature mucks up the usefulness of this feature a little.

Looks like I have to do it the way that I already do.

Thanks

Sergio

Re: Transpose Bass -> treble clef???

Reply #3 –
(Andrew blowing the "macro" trumpet again!)
Using RECORDER.EXE (a Windows 3.11 legacy program, normally found in the old Windows directory) as a macro tool, you could record a sequence of keystrokes (I can't make it work with the mouse) so that you reduce this repetetive sequence to a single keystroke.

Andrew

PS: It'd be nice if NWC did some of these things, but if I can find an easy way with a macro program, then Noteworthy can concentrate on other things.

Re: Transpose Bass -> treble clef???

Reply #4 –
OK It would be good if I were running Win 3.11 but I am running Win95 and also don't know anything about macro's. Andrew, if you have any suggestions as to how I could make this procedure less tedious I would be most pleased.

My main concern is fixing the accidentals once all the note shifting has taken place.

Cheers

Sergio

Re: Transpose Bass -> treble clef???

Reply #5 –
Sergio - you shouldn't have to worry about accidentals.
Follow this example.
C Trom Bass Clef to Bb Euphonium in Treble.

1. Make sure that you have the correct key signature for the C Trom in Bass clef before you start.
You must have a key signature present for transposition operations.

2. Select the entire staff - Home then Shift/End.

3. Use Shift/UpArrow twice to lift the note positions to the correct place in the Treble Clef.

4. Select the Bass Clef symbol - Press Ctrl/E and change the clef to Treble.

5. Use the Refresh Score icon or press F9 to update the accidentals in the key signature to Treble clef.
You now have a Treble Clef part in concert pitch with the correct key signature and accidentals unchanged but pitched 2 octaves higher than the original Trom in Bass Clef.

6. Transpose Staff to Bb - Up 2 semitones then whatever octave transposition you require to place the Euphonium in the correct octave.
You may have to adjust the sound transposition in the Midi section of the Staff Properties dialogue by an octave.

I don't think you will need to mess around with the individual accidentals in the part.

Somewhere else in the forum Eric has described this procedure.
Try searching the forum for transpose clef - you may find it.

Re: Transpose Bass -> treble clef???

Reply #6 –
Barry

your instructions worked a treat thank you. I was moving the notes to the position that they would appear on the treble Bb part and then changing the clef and key signature as well. This did not update some of the accidentals as the play back illustrated.

Thanks again

Sergio

Re: Transpose Bass -> treble clef???

Reply #7 –
Re Transposing non C instruments.

Does anyone have a good list of all the transposing for all the instruments?

thahnkyu

Re: Transpose Bass -> treble clef???

Reply #8 –
> I've found one method of transposing loses some of
> the accidentals, but the other method, doesn't have
> that problem.

There is only one method, which is the Transpose command on the Tools menu. You cannot simply shift notes up or down to transpose them, as this would not properly change the note spelling to keep them in key. If you are just changing clef, however, then you do simply move the notes up or down as necessary, since the same spelling should exist in both clefs.

See also: https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=2 and https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=3

Re: Transpose Bass -> treble clef???

Reply #9 –
What's the transposition for Horn in F to Eb alto Horn.
Is it up 2 or down 10 or are you starting from alto clef?
Just curious!

Re: Transpose Bass -> treble clef???

Reply #10 –
Up 2. Both Horns in treble clef. Eb "sounds" 2 semitones below F so you have to move up 2 to sound in the same pitch. Same as Bb trumpet playing C trumpet parts, read a tone higher.

Sergio

Re: Transpose Bass -> treble clef???

Reply #11 –
I've found one method of transposing loses some of the accidentals, but the other method, doesn't have that problem.
Which method is the wrong way, and which is the right way, and can noteworthy or others suggest a solution for the wrong way?

Re: Transpose Bass -> treble clef???

Reply #12 –
IMHO Noteworthy should add this functionality to the UI. It drives me nuts that I hsve to do it by hand... Transposing in place (just the selection), transposing clef, key transpositions, instrumental transpositions should all be menu items!

Re: Transpose Bass -> treble clef???

Reply #13 –
This sounds like a candidate for a "wizard" with knowledge
of specifications (typical clefs & transpositions) for
target instruments.

If there were an eager user ready to prepare the instrument
database, might a wish be more likely to be granted??

Re: Transpose Bass -> treble clef???

Reply #14 –
Transposing for non C instruments is quite easy if you know the pitch of the instrument.

For example Bb trumpet

Bb sounds 2 semitones lower than C so the transposition must "pull" the notes up to allow the Bb trumpet to sound in the C or concert pitch.
Similarly the F horn to C transposition is 7 semitones up or 5 down.

You will soon get the feel for it.

With regards to clefs I find that some composers will write everything for C instruments if the music is only intended for MIDI playback. If you are writing for "live" players then a bit of research will provide you with more information about clef and pitch. Also while researching this find out the range for the instruments you are writing for.

Just my 10 cents worth.

Sergio

Re: Transpose Bass -> treble clef???

Reply #15 –
Well, IMHO the current behaviour of NWC when changing clefs is correct. If it transposed automatically when changing clefs, (high or up??) this would disallow me to write fugues as I do... :-)
I use the macro recorder too (Sergio, it is really easy to use you know, no "macro language" at all à la µ$-Word (in which case "macro" is bad naming, it should be "script programming"), I'm sending it to you in a separate mail) and this is really simple. And as Andrew points out, if Eric does not work on macros, he can concentrate on other features ;-)

Nevertheless a table that lists all the transposition would be great. I know it exists on the web --I once found it with the scales of many instruments. No time to look for it now.

MAD, HRU (happy reg'd user)

Re: Transpose Bass -> treble clef???

Reply #16 –
hello i am a Bass Clef baritone student @ WMHS adn was wondering if Any one could tell me how to tranpose Trble Clef To Bass Clef By Hand If You Could It would be helpful

Re: Transpose Bass -> treble clef???

Reply #17 –
If you are talking about music written in treble clef for brass instruments that sounds an octave lower than written (which is what I assume you mean) yes its easy.....
Highlight the entire staff then hold down Cntl and Shift, while hitting the up-arrow five times. This repositions the notes ready for bass clef. Then replace the treble clef with bass clef (eg highlight it, then Cntl-E) - the key signature should automatically adjust.

Re: Transpose Bass -> treble clef???

Reply #18 –
Wouldn't a treble clef Baritone part be written as a transposing part in Bb according to brass brand practice? In this case the corresponding bass clef part needs to be written a ninth lower rather than an octave. Therefore you would need to go to Tools/Transpose Staff and transpose down two semitones before following Melissa's instructions.

To do it by hand - rather than by NWC - write out your bass clef part by first identifying the correct key signature, two flats more than the treble clef part (or two sharps less). Then write in the notes on the bass clef one letter name below those on the treble clef. Where there is an accidental in the treble clef, there will need to be an equivalent accidental in the bass clef. If the notes in both the treble and bass clef are not affected by the key signature, the accidental will be the same in both cases but if in the treble clef you have a natural on a note that is sharpened by the key signature, this will transcribe to a flat in the bass clef part if the note is not otherwise affected by the key signature. For example, if the treble clef part is in G maj. The bass clef part will be in F Maj. An Fnat in the treble clef will correspond to a Eb in the bass clef. Similarly if you have a sharp on a note that is not affected by the key signature in the in treble clef it will correspond to natural on a note that is flattened by the key signature in the bass clef. For example, using the key of G again in the treble clef part, a C# in the treble clef part would correspond to a Bnat in the bass clef part.

It's a lot easier using NWC!

Personally, I would recommend learning to read treble clef parts directly. It isn't too difficult and once you've learnt it for the baritone you can use the same fingerings on all the brass instruments (except trombone).

HTH

Stephen (part time treble clef AND bass clef tuba player)

Re: Transpose Bass -> treble clef???

Reply #19 –
If the question hadn't been posed by "Melissa," I would have thought it was an adult male (baritone) voice who wanted to sing from the Bass Clef, rather than from the Treble Clef with octave down. I do that all the time. In this case, the advice about shift-five and change the clef is correct.

Re: Transpose Bass -> treble clef???

Reply #20 –
What was the original name for the treble clef?
What is it's purpous

Re: Transpose Bass -> treble clef???

Reply #21 –
What was the original name for the treble clef?

Treble clef. However, it's also known as the "G clef."

What is it's purpous

Green.

(Sorry. Couldn't resist...)

Re: Transpose Bass -> treble clef???

Reply #22 –
Actually, the original name for the "treble clef" is "treble staff."  There are three clefs: G, F, and C.  When they are placed on a staff, they become treble staff, bass staff, alto staff, tenor staff, French violin staff, baritone staff, soprano staff, mezzo-soprano staff, or sub-bass staff, but many are now obsolete (like the ones you probably never heard of).  Over time, treble staff has turned into treble clef.  I have a friend who is researching notation for her senior thesis, and when she is finished, I will ask her to post the relevant data.

Re: Transpose Bass -> treble clef???

Reply #23 –
How can I transpose music written for a base clef trombone to a treble clef baritone.  I'm new at this so could someone please help me?

Re: Transpose Bass -> treble clef???

Reply #24 –
umm...i am starting alto horn next week for marching band next year...does anybody know what clef its in?? thanx much ~jessie

Re: Transpose Bass -> treble clef???

Reply #25 –
Jessie:  It's probably an Eb instrument in treble clef.

I suspect is is the alto member of the saxhorn family.  If you live in Australia (and probably if you live in Britain, since that's where most of our band tradition has come from) the members of that family are:

Eb sopranino flugel horn (vary rare)
Bb flugel horn
Eb tenor horn  (this is YOUR instrument - and yes, we say it's a TENOR instrument)
Bb baritone
Eb bass
Bbb bass

The higher saxhorns are mostly restricted to brass bands, but you can usually find the lower three in military/concert bands as well.

All brass-band saxhorns read in treble clef.  In the military band bass saxhorns read in bass clef, and baritones usually have parts for either clef.  When the low saxhorns read bass clef, they read it in concert pitch.

In many other countries, they get it right and say the Eb instrument is an ALTO instrument - and then miss out on a tenor instrument!

Re: Transpose Bass -> treble clef???

Reply #26 –
hey. I am currently in band at a high school level, and i transpose music just hte way you do. I helped the director to transpose the whole music peice for future use of the piece for every instrument. We even put it in tenor clef to avoid most leger lines. KEEP IT UP!!! Wildcat Band Is #1!!!