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Topic: Ledger Lines: What Do YOU Think? (Read 10316 times) previous topic - next topic

Ledger Lines: What Do YOU Think?

A question for eveyone (mostly pianists): Say you are writing a song where the piano is playing around middle C, so that the notes will end up on ledger lines in bass and treble clef. Normally, since ledger lines can be annoying, I will write the piano part with double bass clefs or double treble clefs in order to cut down on the ledger lines in the overall piece. My question is: if ledger lines must be used in a piece (meaning most of the piece is situated there) which is preferable, low ledgers on a treble clef or higher ledgers in a bass clef? If I've thrown you with this explanation I've attatched an example piece.
-DAVID COOPER

Re: Ledger Lines: What Do YOU Think?

Reply #1 –
Hi Dave C.,

I can't give you an accurate opinion from a Piano Player's perspective, but since you said the question was for everyone, I think that this situation is probably one reason why the alto and tenor clefs were invented. It's too bad your average piano player can't read (quickly) in either of them. As a viola player, I hate changing clefs when it is unnecessary (mainly because the treble and alto clefs have a large overlap) possibly the rule of thumb is to avoid changing clefs if there is no large advantage of using either.

In the posted example, [as a viola player] I like the look of the right hand better when it is Treble > Alto > Treble.

Globbilink

Re: Ledger Lines: What Do YOU Think?

Reply #2 –
As a (sometimes) pianist, I would suggest using whatever makes the score look least cluttered. Your example is fine the way it is. Most pianists can read three ledger lines at a glance, meaning anything below the treble staff down to F or above the bass staff up to G is easy. It usually isn't too much trouble to go to five. Beyond that we (read: I) may have to count. What will throw us, though, is sticking too many notes into the space in the middle of the grand staff. One solution is to move a treble part that goes down into the bass register onto the bass staff for a bit (RH stems up; LH stems down) or vice versa. If it's only for a measure or two, I personally like that better than changing clefs on the treble staff.

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Ledger Lines: What Do YOU Think?

Reply #3 –
5 leger lines is a bit much between staves, otherwise I agree with Bill. There are no hard rules, just a balance between clutter and excessive page turns.

After a while, pianists stop looking at it as: "top staff = right hand, bottom staff = left hand", and start seeing the staff pair as a continuim. If one staff has notes for both hands, stem direction often indicates what hand is used.

Your example is fine for a student piece, but the Clef change is not needed with anyone with 3 or more years experience.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Ledger Lines: What Do YOU Think?

Reply #4 –
I would say that it completely depends on the passage.
Personally, I would prefer to have the RH section you have in bass clef be in treble clef because of the context,  because of its length, and because it would probably use less ledger lines that way as well.

Also, it would make it easier for analysis by other people.

Or you could use 8vb.

Re: Ledger Lines: What Do YOU Think?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: kahman –
Or you could use 8vb.
There are few absolutes in music, but I think I can safely say that 8va bassa is never used on a Treble Clef or beneath the top staff (regardless of clef) in piano music.

Quote from: Alfred's Essential Dictionary of Music Notation
pg 219: 8va or 8va bassa is never placed between the two staves of a grand staff.
pg 225: Piano uses 8va and 15ma in the treble clef and 8va bassa in the bass clef.
pg 214: The abbeviation 8vb is only a copyist's shorthand and should not be used in engraved music.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Ledger Lines: What Do YOU Think?

Reply #6 –
That is actually really helpful. I ask this because all my music skills are entirely self-taught, so I find myself writing music above my formal education. What is even more of a pleasant surprise is to find out that the question I asked wasn't as obvious as I thought it would have been. ;) 
-DAVID COOPER

Re: Ledger Lines: What Do YOU Think?

Reply #7 –
Rick is correct re 8va bassa never being used on the treble staff. There is no point. As he states, pianists see the grand staff as a continuum - basically, a single staff of eleven lines. The line for middle C is left out to make the music easier to read, and to give the pianist some sense of which parts belong in the left and right hands. 8va designations are for parts that go above or below the normal range of the entire grand staff.

I also agree with Rick about putting too many ledger lines between the two staves that comprise the grand staff. Two lines takes you to the next staff, and - although there are exceptions - at that point, you might as well just move down (or up) there. My previous post was directed at the general case, which includes the space above and below the grand staff.

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Ledger Lines: What Do YOU Think?

Reply #8 –
Quote
Rick is correct re 8va bassa never being used on the treble staff.
Quote
There are few absolutes in music, but I think I can safely say that 8va bassa is never used on a Treble Clef or beneath the top staff (regardless of clef) in piano music.
I have seen it (belive it or not), and understand why it should not be used. I found it very confusing, and it completely threw me off track, again, being self taught and having seen nothing like it. I totally agree that moving down or up one staff and changing stem directions can also be a good way to go, but I have seen it get really messy in conjunction with split chords and things of that nature. 
-DAVID COOPER

Re: Ledger Lines: What Do YOU Think?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Dave C. –
That is actually really helpful. I ask this because all my music skills are entirely self-taught, so I find myself writing music above my formal education.
Certainly all my notational skills are "self-taught". I would recommend Alfred publishing's Essential dictionary of Musical Notation. It is only $7.95USD and widely available. One of NWC's strengths is it allows many things that are musically wrong. Alfred is a good guide to sorting this out.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Ledger Lines: What Do YOU Think?

Reply #10 –
I was actually looking into that after seeing your post. It seems to be a wise investment for anyone who wants to compose or arrange music (as I do).
-DAVID COOPER