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Topic: Help for the Cyber Hymnal (Read 10017 times) previous topic - next topic

Help for the Cyber Hymnal

CyberHymnal needs help to get their NWC scores fixed. 

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/o/g/t/ogtkttaj.htm
 
Click on St. Francis Xavier/score --> See in Measure 3: dotted quarter (A-flat), eighth note rest , then eighth-note (B-flat), then quarter-note (G), then a quarter-note (F)
 
This is 4 and 1/2 beats in a 4/4 measure.  The eighth-note rest is "extra".  This happens
a lot in the scores.  Compare my transcription: 
 
http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/images/c/c8/JohnStainer-St_Francis_xavier2.pdf
 
and you will see NO rests in measure 3 ...

Now the question is what are they doing wrong.  I tried editing the file, and removing the
dot makes no difference.  Is the voicing wrong ?  What do they need to do to correct it ?

- John Henry Fowler
  Admin at CPDL and amateur music engraver.
  johnhenryfowler@gmail.com

Re: Help for the Cyber Hymnal

Reply #1 –
Actually, the way this is written will yield the correct MIDI performance from NWC. The attached example demonstrates the equivalent using layering.

Re: Help for the Cyber Hymnal

Reply #2 –
G'day John,
just to try to help clarify a little...

When creating a chord that has elements with differing time values - like the first chord in bar 3 - the duration of the chord is taken from the shortest element.

So, in the case of your example, the crotchet chorded with the dotted crotchet has a time value of a crotchet only.  The dotted crotchet will still be held for the correct time, but the chord duration itself is that of the crotchet.

Now, in order for the rest of the bar to be laid out correctly and enable the un chorded quaver to be placed correctly the second note (a crotchet) needs to have the correct time value.

This can only be achieved by chording the second crotchet with a quaver rest.  Thus the total time value for the first 2 chords is actually a beat and a half, NOT 2 beats as the "and" of the second beat is now on the quaver - as it should be.

The rest of the bar is self explanatory.

In reality, if you look at your pdf, even though not printed, the rest is assumed.  Unfortunately, NWC can't assume the rest for you.  You must explicitly place it.

That said, Noteworthy Online's example with layering shows how you can do it and have the rest appear to be assumed.

In the NWC2 beta there is a way to have the restchord as shown in the original example, but have the rest "moved" off the page so it doesn't print, thus giving the same effect.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Help for the Cyber Hymnal

Reply #3 –
Thanks, Laurie and Admin for your explanations.  In Sibelius "extra" rests can be "hidden" so they are assumed, and not explicidly present in the score.  I guess the "layering" feature of NWC affords the same end result.

- JHF
 

Re: Help for the Cyber Hymnal

Reply #4 –
We tried the layering technique, but have a problem with eighth notes. When the two layered staffs have eighth notes, the "layered" version shows two "tails" on the stem, so it ends up looking like a 16th note. You can see this in the second note of measure 4 here:

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/nwc/g/a/u/LayerTest.nwc

How do we get rid of the extra tail?

Re: Help for the Cyber Hymnal

Reply #5 –
Try the attachment.

I have also split the unisons and seconds. This will help in the transition to NWC2 where you can make the note stems shorter.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Help for the Cyber Hymnal

Reply #6 –
That was good! I first played the LayerTest, then rg_LayerTest_01.
The musical outcome is quite a surprise, when the choral voice comes back in bar 3 and goes away in bar 4.
"Peu importe", as the French say, because your illustration is perfect.

Re: Help for the Cyber Hymnal

Reply #7 –
Hi

I have been using Noteworthy Composer for almost 12 years, and, as a Male Voice Choir member and conductor, I have often found the "one staff one voice" a nuisance.  However, layering does overcome this.  It is custom and practise for the upper voice to have all stems up, and the lower voice all stems down.  Thus, when inputting the notes on the individual staves, stave 1 (soprano) should be all stems up, stave 2 (alto) stems down, stave 3 (tenor) up, and stave 4 (bass) down.  Layer Staff2 over staff1 and staff4 over staff3.  Review the score, and if there and any 2nd intervals, unlayer and allow extra space to the note on the layered staff.  The same applies to accidentals (eg C# and A#) where the two # signs will collide.  By maintaining different stem directions for the two layered parts will avoid "double-tailing" of quavers.

Hope my two penn'orth helps.

Bob Petty (UK)

Re: Help for the Cyber Hymnal

Reply #8 –
Quote from: BobPetty –
It is custom and practise for the upper voice to have all stems up, and the lower voice all stems down.
This is true for much choir music, but not hymnals in the United States. From my collection, only the Episcopal Hymnal divides the voices as you describe.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Help for the Cyber Hymnal

Reply #9 –
Quote
From my collection, only the Episcopal Hymnal divides the voices as you describe.
If you look at some hymnals published by GIA, the standard at my church, the stem directions for each song are all pretty much varied. Mostly due to the age of some of the pieces, I assume.
-DAVID COOPER

Re: Help for the Cyber Hymnal

Reply #10 –
Very curious. In the four UK hymnals immediately at hand, all have split stems. So too does Novello when setting Bach chorales (usually choral music is set on individual staves).

ABRSM Guide to Music Theory is clear that this is correct for singers. But it agrees with Alfred (silent on singers) that orchestral parts normally share a stem.