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Topic: What is the difference between "Staff" and "Stave"? (Read 45540 times) previous topic - next topic

What is the difference between "Staff" and "Stave"?

I have always used these words more or less interchangeably, but I have often wondered:  Is there any difference?  When would one use the word "staff" rather than the word "stave"?

I tried the NWC in-house search as well as Google and "Ask Jeeves" but I was unable to pose my question in a manner that would narrow the "hits" to a manageable size.

Comments, anyone?

Re: What is the difference between "Staff" and "Stave"?

Reply #1 –
Basically no difference.  We are having the pleasure of seeing English evolve before our very eyes!

At a guess - I'm ready to be corrected!  Some singular nouns ending in an "F" sound formed their purals with a written "ve": knife, roof, hoof, dwarf, staff and no doubt others.

As our more common way of forming plurals is to add "s" or "es", some of these older singular-plural pairs are being "normalised".  "Rooves" has now been replaced by "roofs".

I can only guess that "staves" was more often used than "staff", so the singular has altered.  It might also be that people using staves (writers and readers of music) might have been more resistant to change for longer.  Music education has only been forced on the masses for roughly half a century, and teachers would have been keen to ensure the correct plural was used.  There would also have been some who would have let "stave" through, either through ignorance, or because they thought it sounded better than boring old "staff".

I generally try to use "staff" for singular and "staves" for plural, but I'll guarantee I've used "stave" many a time, without even noticing.

Re: What is the difference between "Staff" and "Stave"?

Reply #2 –
Just thought of something else.  The staff/stave thing is not new, at least for the weapon/tool.  There have long been differences in different dialects.  Vaguely seem to remember it's something to do with the Danish/Viking invasions of England, a few centuries before the Norman conquest.

[Risking a very big slap] You can blame the Scandinavians for just about anything to do with "k" or "v"!

Re: What is the difference between "Staff" and "Stave"?

Reply #3 –
I'm only part-Scandihoovian, but when I learned Swedish a few years ago, I learned there are no silent letters.  So knife and Knut would be pronounced with an audible k.

Stave, if it's Swedish, would be pronounced with a broad a sound, and the e would be pronouned too.

I have a hunch singular "stave" in English is just a dialect or an error.

It doesn't matter a hoot, though, as long as both parties to the communication have a common understanding.  As Ewan says, languages evolve.

Re: What is the difference between "Staff" and "Stave"?

Reply #4 –
I heartily agree with your sentiments David.
It's a pity that those who criticise the location of an apostrophe in this forum don't agree with us.

Re: What is the difference between "Staff" and "Stave"?

Reply #5 –
Sorry, I can only partially agree with you, Barry!
When I play a tune on the piano, it is highly probable that I shall play at least one wrong note.  Usually that will be because I am technically incompetent: my fingers don’t go where I try to put them.  But occasionally it will be because I have mis-read the score.  If, in the latter case, the ‘wrong’ note sounds all right to my ear, I shall continue to play it until somebody who is more sensitive to these things corrects me.  I do not then condemn that person for being pedantic.  Language has rules as does music, and despite attempts by some people to re-write the rules, to others misplaced apostrophes will continue to be as offensive as wrong notes.  Personally, I wouldn’t dream of correcting the grammar of contributors to this forum, but let’s not excuse sloppiness by calling it evolution!
I agree with Ewan.  ‘Staff’ for the singular and ‘staves’ for the plural is probably how it used to be in British English, but language has now evolved to the extent that ‘staff’ or ‘stave’, and ‘staffs’ or ‘staves’ are equally acceptable.
The question never arose for me until I started using Noteworthy Composer, and then I simply assumed that the difference between ‘staff’ and ‘stave’ was like the difference between ‘bar’ and ‘measure’, ‘crotchet’ and ‘quarter note’ - or ‘kerb’ and ‘curb’!

Re: What is the difference between "Staff" and "Stave"?

Reply #6 –
Some years ago, I was minding my friend's 3-year old. Two mice ran across the back yard. He said, "Look, two mouses!" I corrected, "One mouse, two mice."

Later, he told his father, "We saw two mouses, one mouse, and two mice."

Re: What is the difference between "Staff" and "Stave"?

Reply #7 –
...misplaced apostrophes will continue to be as offensive as wrong notes.
...let’s not excuse sloppiness by calling it evolution!
Well said, Graham Harrison.

I've always used ‘staff’ for the singular and ‘staves’ for the plural, and always will.  I have never seen ‘stave’ for the singular before I came to this forum, except as in ‘stave off an attacker’ or the like.  However, my [abbr=from 1979...]dictionary[/abbr] has the two words as interchangeable.

Re: What is the difference between "Staff" and "Stave"?

Reply #8 –
Evolving language does help to make us laugh.
The singular of knaves now could be a knaff?
Rob.

Re: What is the difference between "Staff" and "Stave"?

Reply #9 –
Was it "Davey Crockett" or "Daffy Crocket"?

Re: What is the difference between "Staff" and "Stave"?

Reply #10 –
Jiminy Cricket, I think.

Re: What is the difference between "Staff" and "Stave"?

Reply #11 –
I looked up staff and stave in many dictionaries, and they all more or less consider them as synonyms, and some state that stave is more common in British English.

Also, some of these dictionaries had an etymological explanation, and stave is indeed said to come from the plural of staff; The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language (4th edition) states 'from staves, pl. of staff'.

Re: What is the difference between "Staff" and "Stave"?

Reply #12 –
Okey, i am from Sweden, so.......

It's not "Stave", it's "Stav". Förresten pratar du någon svenska?

:)

Re: What is the difference between "Staff" and "Stave"?

Reply #13 –
Ja, det gör jag (but my English is better) :)

Re: What is the difference between "Staff" and "Stave"?

Reply #14 –
Glad to hear. I wonder why you use the word "Stave" when it's "Stav".

I'm speaking english too, but my swedish it's much better.

Re: What is the difference between "Staff" and "Stave"?

Reply #15 –
Oooooops!

I'm maybe in the wrong forum, i don't even own NoteWorthy Composer. I use Cubase and FL Studio and doing most techno and drum n base stuff. But i play the guitar and bass too. (he he)

Stupid of me.

Roligt att du kunde lite svenska i alla fall.

Hej då!

Bye!

Re: What is the difference between "Staff" and "Stave"?

Reply #16 –
... That's OK. I don't own those other programs, but I check out their forums anyway.

Re: What is the difference between "Staff" and "Stave"?

Reply #17 –
So the singular form is, after all, staff. And there are lots of staff members. They are called notes.
(No prizes to be won for guessing my real name - sorry.)