Skip to main content ↑ ↓
Topic: unusual (to me, at least) time signarture (Read 9100 times) previous topic - next topic

unusual (to me, at least) time signarture

in EG Fellowes book of Morley's First Book Of Ayres,  there is an odd time marking I've not run across previously, consisting of a crossed circle above the number 32. (Tune: "O, No, Thou Dost Flout Me") (above the staff in parentheses are a small half note, an equals sign and a small dotted whole note)

If anyone could tell me what this might represent and how to show in on a Noteworthy 1.75 staff, I should be appreciative.

Re: unusual (to me, at least) time signarture

Reply #1 –
I don't know what it means, but that doesn't seem like a time signature that can be automatically placed in NWC (or other programs).

However, you can place whatver you like as text. A crossed circle might be found in a fonts such as Webdings or Wingdings. Digits in appropriate styles can be found in some fonts I've seen. You would specify "user fonts" and place the crossed circle and number at different staff heights, playing with the alignment as necessary.

Of course, that would have no effect on sound output, only on the printed appearance.

Re: unusual (to me, at least) time signarture

Reply #2 –
Would the "gunsight" coda sign do for the top part of the time signature?

Re: unusual (to me, at least) time signarture

Reply #3 –
Excellent ideas, both!  Tried them and both do fine for appearance, but now I still need to figure out what the (silly) thing means and it's effect on the music itself.  I've gone thru Grove's Music but either I'm not asking it the right questions or this is truly esoteric. (I'll vote for the latter, but the former is probably more accurate.)

Re: unusual (to me, at least) time signarture

Reply #4 –
...and it's effect...
should read
...and its effect...

Re: unusual (to me, at least) time signarture

Reply #5 –
...and it's effect...
should read
...and its effect...

and I'll bet you drive at 29.9 mph in a 30 mph zone . .

Re: unusual (to me, at least) time signarture

Reply #6 –
I drive around 50 kph in a 30 mph zone.

Re: unusual (to me, at least) time signarture

Reply #7 –
What does driving have to do with proper grammar?

Re: unusual (to me, at least) time signarture

Reply #8 –
Fools rush in at 50 mph in a 30 mph zone where angels dare to tread (they'd be knocked over); likewise, fools rush in where misspellings occur, knocking over egos and hurting feelings. I should know, I have stabbed at a few misspellings myself.

I must say that I was tempted to write 'where angels dare to thread', just to launch some more (mis)spelling fun. But no.

Re: unusual (to me, at least) time signarture

Reply #9 –
My Grammar, if the deer ole sole was still hear, woud ov drived at 29 mph in a 50kph zone.  Ov cors, that wud be Swedish miles which are each 10 km.

This is a discussion forum about music notation and it doesn't matter a hill of beans whether or not Graham is a stickler for grammar and spelling.  The occasional spelling mistake is sometimes carelessness, sometimes ignorance, and sometimes just a typo, but some readers think it's of prime importance.  I find corrections such as Graham's are annoying, but it's not worth getting bent out of shape about.

My own view is that as long as I can understand what you're writing, I don't really care about your spelling.  Most people don't read the letters within words anyway, they just recognize the word shape.

Re: unusual (to me, at least) time signarture

Reply #10 –
Question by 'Beans'
What does driving have to do with proper grammar?

Answer: Nothing !

rhetorical question from me :-
What does "proper grammar" have to do with NWC or music ?

Answer: Nothing !

I'm not going to go on and on about this, otherwise i might end up like Graham !
It's just that the relentless 'schoolmaster' corrections  made by Graham seem to me to be aimed more at insulting the intelligence, rather than being helpful.
That's it. Rant over.

p.s. i like your sense of humour, Rob

Re: unusual (to me, at least) time signarture

Reply #11 –
Well, if we're going to be picky, shouldn't it be km.h-1 rather than kph?  Well, that's what officialdom in Australia expects us to write!

Of course, they forgot to mention how we're supposed to put the "-1" in superscript if we're typing in plain text.

Most of us just ignore the rules and go for "kph" or the slightly less wrong "kmph"!

Re: unusual (to me, at least) time signarture

Reply #12 –
Ay, but what does the (censored) time signature mean, then?  It's [its {'tis}] insane entirely the lot o' yez are.  :-)

Seriously,  any ideas?

Re: unusual (to me, at least) time signarture

Reply #14 –
Gentlemen, please. The question on the floor concerns:

"in EG Fellowes book of Morley's First Book Of Ayres, there is an odd time marking I've not run across previously, consisting of a crossed circle above the number 32... (above the staff in parentheses are a small half note, an equals sign and a small dotted whole note)"

Fellowes is probably showing that he's using the modern signature of 3/2, which means the basic beat is a dotted whole, that can be divided into three halves - but that the original notation had beats of half notes, subdivided into three quarters. (Are you sure it isn't the other way around? It's commoner for the old notation to use longer note values than we might.)

OR, if it comes in the course of the piece, at a section change,  the equation likely means that the half-note in the previous section should be exactly as long as the dotted whole in the next - a pretty common device; three beats in one section equals two or four in the next. Again, I've seen it more often as the dotted half = whole note than the other way around.

This is just a guess. I don't have your score in front of me and I don't know the piece, but I do know that Fellowes modernised some time signatures in his editions. If this isn't a scholarly edition you're doing - if it's intended for performers - I'd say write it out the way he's got it and use whatever modern time signature fits, probably 3/2 or 3/4.

Re: unusual (to me, at least) time signarture

Reply #15 –
I agree. If the circle is crossed (2 intersecting lines), or slashed, it's likely diminution (dotted half = half note) to the next section (or from the last section).
The circle is perfect time, so the numerator is probably 3.
If there's a discernable dot in the circle, then the denominator is possibly also a factor of 3. If not, then it's a duple. Hard to be sure what someone meant when they're dead now.
And I've forgotten most of this. It's been 40 years.

Perfect represented the trilogy, and circles were a perfect shape (with no protuberances). A dot made the entire time signature trebles (3/3, 3/6, 3/9, 9/3, etc.).
With only the circle, you'd likely get 3/2, 6/4, or something similar.
But someone will probably prove me wrong in a minute or less...

Re: unusual (to me, at least) time signarture

Reply #16 –
Ta' to JK and KD... I think yez solved it for me.  I'll just pretend it never happened and use 3/2 (which fits like a glove) and get on with it.  I spend entirely too much time obsessing over this stuff as it is.

The Music