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Topic: Rests in Chords - a fix discovered! (Read 7552 times) previous topic - next topic

Rests in Chords - a fix discovered!
I've just accidentally discovered an improvement that might help people.  Perhaps it was there all along, and I missed it!  Bar/measure 1 is what I wanted, and can now do without layering.

Previously, you could only have a rest in a chord if its length was shorter than the notes.  Now, you can now also have a rest in the chord if it is the same length as the notes.  You still can't have short notes and long rests in a chord.  You still have to enter the rest first.

Bars 2 and 3 show some examples.  You cannot beam notes.

There is still the problem with the semibreve (whole note) and minim (half note) rests, as in bar 4.

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|RestChord|Dur:4th|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-6
|RestChord|Dur:4th|Opts:Stem=Down,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-2
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:-8|Opts:Stem=Down|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-1
|RestChord|Dur:4th|Opts:Stem=Down,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:4th|Pos2:0
|Bar|Style:Double
|RestChord|Dur:Whole,Dotted|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:Whole,Dotted|Pos2:-5
|RestChord|Dur:Whole|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:Whole|Pos2:-5
|RestChord|Dur:Half,Dotted|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:Half,Dotted|Pos2:-5
|RestChord|Dur:Half|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:Half|Pos2:-5
|RestChord|Dur:4th,Dotted|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:4th,Dotted|Pos2:-5
|RestChord|Dur:4th|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-5
|RestChord|Dur:8th,Dotted|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:8th,Dotted|Pos2:-5
|RestChord|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:8th|Pos2:-5
|RestChord|Dur:16th,Dotted|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:16th,Dotted|Pos2:-5
|RestChord|Dur:16th|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:16th|Pos2:-5
|RestChord|Dur:32nd,Dotted|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:32nd,Dotted|Pos2:-5
|RestChord|Dur:32nd|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:32nd|Pos2:-5
|RestChord|Dur:64th,Dotted|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:64th,Dotted|Pos2:-5
|RestChord|Dur:64th|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:64th|Pos2:-5
|RestChord|Dur:8th,Triplet=First|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:8th|Pos2:-5
|RestChord|Dur:8th,Triplet|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:8th|Pos2:-5
|RestChord|Dur:8th,Triplet=End|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:8th|Pos2:-5
|Bar
|RestChord|Dur:Whole|Opts:Stem=Down,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:Whole|Pos2:5
|RestChord|Dur:Half|Opts:Stem=Down,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:Half|Pos2:5
|RestChord|Dur:4th|Opts:Stem=Down,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:4th|Pos2:5
|RestChord|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Down,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:8th|Pos2:5
|RestChord|Dur:16th|Opts:Stem=Down,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:16th|Pos2:5
|RestChord|Dur:32nd|Opts:Stem=Down,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:32nd|Pos2:5
|RestChord|Dur:64th|Opts:Stem=Down,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:64th|Pos2:5
|Bar|Style:Double
|RestChord|Dur:Whole|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:Whole|Pos2:-1
|RestChord|Dur:Half|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:Half|Pos2:-1
|RestChord|Dur:Whole|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:Whole|Pos2:-2
|RestChord|Dur:Half|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:Half|Pos2:-2
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Re: Rests in Chords - a fix discovered!
Reply #1
That's a definite (unannounced) change in the program. But why not go the whole hog and let the rest be longer than the note? And optionally invisible?

Re: Rests in Chords - a fix discovered!
Reply #2
And while you're at it, allow the rest to be inserted AFTER the notes - Ctrl+Space would seem an obvious key combination to use.

My personal preference would be to have a "Chord toggle" mode, so if you turned chord mode on, all notes and rests would be entered on top of each other - turn it off and things work as currently.

Robin

Re: Rests in Chords - a fix discovered!
Reply #3
Peter, that's a great idea!  There are times when a piano reduction has to show multiple voices, so that the performer can make each voice sound correct, rather than whole lot just being a piano mish-mash.  Choral music could make good use of longer rests in chords, as could a violin partita.

But I can't see why you'd want to make the rest invisible.  Wouldn't the other notes in the chord take up the required amount of time?  Let's just ask for rests first, rather than asking for both visible and invisibility in the same chord.

Ewan

Re: Rests in Chords - a fix discovered!
Reply #4
Neither request is new  - in fact both are positively ancient.

The invisible rest is needed to fix problem illustrated here:

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down|Dur2:4th,Dotted|Pos2:3
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:1
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up
|Bar
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down|Dur2:4th|Pos2:3^
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up|Dur2:4th|Pos2:1
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up
|Bar
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down|Dur2:4th,Dotted|Pos2:3
|RestChord|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem,VertOffset=7|Dur2:4th|Pos2:1
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
The first bar is a quaver too long.

The second shows a fix, but it is notationally confusing and not standard.

The third bar shows a potential fix, but only if you can make the rest invisible.

To be fair NoteWorthy fixed it by introducing layering, but that brings its own problems and shortcomings (previously discussed at length in many places).

Re: Rests in Chords - a fix discovered!
Reply #5
Ah, now I see.  I would have gone to layering straight away for this.  The first bar might be almost acceptable visibly, but the play-back would be wrong.

You've suggested a really good lateral solution.  I probably wouldn't have thought of it, as there are no missing beats to start with.  Your third bar - even if the rest is invisible - has an extra quaver!

Here's a suggestion that might give a better result, but it could get confusing.  I'll wish for it.  If a note starts before a previous chord has finished, the note is considered (for timing only - not stem direction etc) to be part of a chord that also has the remaining time of the first chord as one of its "notes".

It shouldn't be a difficult fix.  It would need the previous chord to be examined for the difference between the longest duration and the shortest duration, and a null-print-effect duration to be assessed as part of the current note/chord.  The previous chord is already being examined to determine the shortest duration in it, so that the following note can be placed.  Of course, it would all get much more complicated if ever chords were to allow more than two voices!

But I don't hold much hope for this fix, as there is already layering to deal with the problem.

Cheers,

Re: Rests in Chords - a fix discovered!
Reply #6
Your third bar - even if the rest is invisible - has an extra quaver!

No it doesn't. It plays like a 2/4 bar, lines up like a 2/4 bar, and, if you hide the rest, looks like a 2/4 bar. What more could you ask?

Layering is the answer to multi-part writing on one staff, but not to the occasional syncopation. I can quite understand NoteWorthy's reluctance to implement multi-parts on on staff, and what has been implemented is at least understandable. A multi-duration chord acts exactly (for timing/positioning purposes) as its shortest component would on its own, then everything starts again. That would work for any number of durations in a chord.

That in its turn would imply the need for invisible multi-rest 'chords', but that's another story!

Re: Rests in Chords - a fix discovered!
Reply #7
???? Unless my importing of Clip Text has gone wrong, the third bar has two voices, the upper of which is a dotted crotchet, a quaver rest and a quaver, and the lower of which is two crotchets.  Doesn't this mean the upper voice has an extra quaver?

Sure, the bar plays ok in NWC.  If I'm writing just for NWC play-back (for recording), I don't care what the notes look like - I'll use ties and ugly notation.

But I also write for printing, so the music can be played live.  If I were to perform this bar, I'd have to decide what it should really be.  I'd probably leave out the dot and think "stupid copyist - can't get the rhythm right"!

Re: Rests in Chords - a fix discovered!
Reply #8
That's why the rest needs to be hidden. Then the bar looks as it should. It already plays and lines up properly.

The only function of the rest is to shorten the chord so that the next note position falls after a quaver rather than a crotchet, thus fixing the original problem as shown in the first bar.

Re: Rests in Chords - a fix discovered!
Reply #9
...but if you hide the rest, the crotchet of the second voice will be hidden also.

Re: Rests in Chords - a fix discovered!
Reply #10
I just want to be able to hide the rest on its own :-(