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Brass instruments/AWE64 sound fonts

I installed an AWE64, and found the sound quality to be
superior to the card I used before, but still the
instruments were unacceptable to me (I'm writing for brass
quintet - 2 trumpets, horn, trombone & tuba). So I bought
a 12M memory module from Creative, then downloaded the Chaos
12M sound font (as suggested by Drake Donahue) and installed
it. But I can't tell any difference in the sounds I get
from Noteworthy, before or after the memory/sound font
installation (I also tried the sound fonts which came with
the card & memory module). So I have the feeling I just
wasted $$. Am I missing something in my installation, or
will brass instruments sound hokey no matter what I do?

Here's what I've done:
In AWE Control:
synth tab
available synth = General Midi
set path to the Chaos sound font
apply (following this, there are only 380K out of the
12M memory left available)
quit
In Noteworthy:
Tools
Options
Midi tab
put AWE64 MIDI Synth (620) into the "devices used by
play back" window
OK
Staff
Playback Instrument
patch list = General MIDI
selected the appropriate instrument
I left the bank select and controller at their defaults.
OK

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Re: Brass instruments/AWE64 sound fonts

Reply #1 –
I do have a tin ear but I found the 8meg Chaos head and shoulders better than the Emu 8 meg gmgs which was a head better than what came with my awe 32 card. The 12 meg chaos claims to use Roland samples so I have been feeling bad about only having 8 meg. Compared to live even a CD sounds cheesy to me and a CD is still better than the Chaos. I have not found a trumpet i like in any sound font but Chaos trombone, french horn, baritone and tubas, etc, as well as the woodwinds; I like real well. Not crazy about the 8 meg chaos guitars. If you are not at present, I might suggest using the line out to rca plugs cable that came with the card (in my case anyway) to connect to your stereo system (or use headphones). My computer speakers were limiting my attempt to hear good sound.

Staff
Staff properties
Does AWE 620 midi synth appear as playback device?
If perchance it does not-mine used midimapper at one time and midimapper wanted fm synth ...

Re: Brass instruments/AWE64 sound fonts

Reply #2 –
Thanks for the reply. Yes, AWE 620 midi synth appears
as playback device. I've tried midi mapper also; sounds
exactly the same. The sound with headphones is only
marginally better, still very unrealistic. Maybe I expect
too much.

Re: Brass instruments/AWE64 sound fonts

Reply #3 –
You might try recording .WAV files of your instruments and:
if you like the playback use Vienna to make your own font.
if you don't like the playback then ?punt? :)
Side by side of a .WAV vs a .MID vs the instrument doing the same note may tell you whether the big gap is in the playback hardware or the wavetable synth.

Re: Brass instruments/AWE64 sound fonts

Reply #4 –
Two things:

1. I am not an expert in SoundBlaster support, but, in your AWE Control, I think that your available synth should be set to "User Synth", not "General MIDI" (this is what works for me)

2. In NWC, you should have only one device listed in "Devices used by play back", which should be AWE64 MIDI Synth (or, in our case, we "AWE64G MIDI Synth", probably because it is the AWE64 Gold model)

Re: Brass instruments/AWE64 sound fonts

Reply #5 –
It sounds to me like Richard's problem is that the samples in the GM set
aren't good enough to provide the standard of synthesis he's after.

He's got 12 Mbytes of RAM in his card, and he wants to use four different
instruments. So he has 2.5 Mbytes per instrument available.

However, what he's actually done is to upload a complete general MIDI set,
eight(!) full drumkits plus 128 assorted instruments. The sizes will vary, but
that means he's using 100 K or so per instrument.

So roughly speaking he's using instruments that are 1/25 the quality he could
have, because almost all the RAM in his board is taken up by other instruments
he's not actually using.

If he wants instruments that sound authentic, the way to do it is to get
some nice big samples for just the instruments he wants, and load them into his
soundcard in place of the general MIDI set.

The catch is that he'll either have to buy them, or make them himself.

One fairly cheap option would be the CD of brass instruments that E-mu sell.
I got it bundled with my AWE, and the instruments sound fairly good (certainly
better than their General Midi instruments). I don't work for E-mu, and
in fact this isn't even a recommendation - I'm just pointing out that it's
available.

Also, regarding "General MIDI" and "User Synth" - the first refers to
instrument bank 0, the second to banks 1, 2, 3 etc. As I understand it the only
difference is that bank 0 has a Creative Labs-supplied general MIDI soundfont
installed in it by default. If you want to use all the AWE RAM for your own
samples, you have to replace it. So what Richard was doing was correct.

Neil

Re: Brass instruments/AWE64 sound fonts

Reply #6 –
I think Neil is spot on. I don't need 10 Mb of drums and
electric guitars.
Neil - I'm trying to figure which CD from E-mu you're referring to.
The closest I can find on their web page is called "Emulator
standards", part no. 6009. It has a lot of stuff other than
brass instruments, which are distinctly in the minority. Or
do you mean a different CD? Has it any identifying characteristics?
I'd be reluctant to spend another $95 without some assurance that
it wouldn't be wasted.
Thanks for your help.

Re: Brass instruments/AWE64 sound fonts

Reply #7 –
I think the 6009 sounds like the source for the 8mb gmgs that you got with your card.
creaf.com has a free download of "clean horns" on their site from their latest efforts. It is a french horn that does sound more like a french horn than the gmgs or chaos, but it sounds ugly to me. In short, you are more likely to hear it and say, "french horn", but then to say, "fire that guy".
My $95 stays in my pocket.
Have you looked at the Vienna sound font editor yet?

Re: Brass instruments/AWE64 sound fonts

Reply #8 –
I feel that some of you are missing the point. I too have been writing for Brass Quintet but I have found the sounds that came with my AWE32 more than adequate. I'm a Trumpet player myself, so believe me when I tell you thay are nothing like the true sounds of the original instruments.
I only use the available sounds to 'proof' my writing. I know that when I put my Score up in front of a group that it will sound heaps better (obviously) but for checking the general overall voicing and timbre of my arrangement, what comes with the sound card is fine.

I see no real point in spending the time and/or money researching better sounds. It's easier to make a recording of the final result (when it's played that is...) and play that when you want to hear the 'true' sound of your arrangement. Besides... a group of talented muso's make an arrangement sound like it should, not like how a computer would play it...

Re: Brass instruments/AWE64 sound fonts

Reply #9 –
were can I get a version of vienna at.....the only sound font editor i found was esbeekay and it does not support SB2 files...which I use on my Live!........I would like to have a good program for making and mapping out sound fonts.

Thanks

Re: Brass instruments/AWE64 sound fonts

Reply #10 –
Vienna 2.3 is available at www.sblive.com, in their download section.

Re: Brass instruments/AWE64 sound fonts

Reply #11 –
Before you spend the BIG bucks for soundfonts, first check out the HUGE database of free soundfonts at

http://www.pvv.org/~thammer/HammerSound/

You will find that this gentleman has compiled a world-wide collection of single instrument samples, ensembles, GM/GS sets . . .

This is my one-stop site for soundfonts -- check it out and you'll be busy for weeks!

Re: Brass instruments/AWE64 sound fonts

Reply #12 –
By the way, I'll have to agree with Richard in that my experience with the SoundBlaster AWE64 Gold card has been quite disappointing. Having used a Korg M1 for years now, I expected the superior specifications of the AWE 64 to eliminate my need for the Korg altogether. This has definitely not been my experience, regardless of the soundfont that I have tried. Not that the Korg is by any means perfect with its loopy, loopy strings; alas, 'tis the state of computer-generated music!

Re: Brass instruments/AWE64 sound fonts

Reply #13 –
I've just bought a Soundblaster Live card. One of the main reasons for this was to use sounfonts with it but the Vienna manual is so crap I can't work out how to make my own soundfonts or load patches/banks etc..
I hope I'm not just being thick!
Can anyone please help??

Re: Brass instruments/AWE64 sound fonts

Reply #14 –
I downloaded some soundfonts from the internet,but i dont know how to use it in the Qubase music program.can you help me out?

Re: Brass instruments/AWE64 sound fonts

Reply #15 –
I have downloaded some soundfont from hammer sound site,but I cant hear them with vienna software program .then I tryied to download The Awav software but i still cant hear the sounds.And there is something else .Idont know how to use the soundfonts in the cubase.cant you pls help me with this problems

Re: Brass instruments/AWE64 sound fonts

Reply #16 –
Cubase is notorious for not working properly with midi devices that play via the wave device (including softsynths, etc.). For what it's worth, this is the forum for NoteWorthy Composer, a program that does not have such restrictions. You might see if you can get some support or a workaround from http://www.steinberg.net

Re: Brass instruments/AWE64 sound fonts

Reply #17 –
Hi everyone!

I want to buy some RAM for my Soundblaster AWE64...

Now it´s have 512kB :-(

If you will give me your RAM-CARD cheaply, then write me to:
DJIXAM20@UBOOT.COM

Greetz, DjIxam20

Re: Brass instruments/AWE64 sound fonts

Reply #18 –
Hi, i have downloaded some sondfonts. And i have a lot of problems:

The first of all is that i wanted to download good soundfonts but i only have 553kb of RAM. What sould i do?
By another sound-card?, get more RAM memory?, or its not necessary the RAM memory?

Anyway i use Cakewalk programs, and i can't find the sound fonts i downloaded in Cakewalk or Cubace. What sould i do?

Could anyone help me, please?

Re: Brass instruments/AWE64 sound fonts

Reply #19 –
If 512K RAM is all you have that is the largest font you can load.
You have three options -
1. Buy the Creative RAM extension (expensive) -
2. Buy an SB Live card (probably as expensive but you get an updated card) -
3. Swap the 64 for an SB32 with RAM slots and find some 30pin SIMMS to fit the card (you need pairs of SIMMS in 2Mb, 4MB or 16Mb size).
I have 2x4Mb Simms on my 32 allowing me to load an 8Mb soundfont (I use the 8mb CHAOS sf for the brass and saxes).
4Mb SIMMS cost about $5US each here in OZ.

You could also use a patch cache containing just the trumpet, trom and sax patches in another bank - with a bit of luck this may fit your RAM and use your ROM for the other voices.

Re: Brass instruments/AWE64 sound fonts

Reply #20 –
Hello ,
I have a AWE64G
I would like buy Memory Module
I must use Creative Memory expensive ..or
I can Use "memory compatible or adaptateur for Sim standard" ?

You said with AWE32 you can Use old SImm 32pin standard !
Not with AWE64G !!! exactly

Thank for your help
Seb

Re: Brass instruments/AWE64 sound fonts

Reply #21 –
i cant record any of the songs i create on midi can you help me!!!!

Re: Brass instruments/AWE64 sound fonts

Reply #23 –
I see this question is 3 years old, so by now I'm assuming you've upgraded your hardware, to either a later version of the SoundBlaster Live which is actually an incredible card for making music, and expanded your knowledge of Soundfonts, or gotten some sort of pro gear.

In general you'll find that the larger the sample you're able to use the better the sound will be. Your available memory on that old card was very limited. The Live cards allow you to use up to half your system memory, so if you've since upgraded your computer, hopefully to at least a Pentium II with some expanded memory, you'll have at least 128 megs or more. To get an optimum sound on any instrument, loading stand-alone instruments is the best way to go instead of taking up memory with a bank where most of the instruments you're not even going to use - Just how often are people inspired to use helicopters, bird tweets and ringing phones in their music? >;0)

It's my seat of the pants observation that for a string, woodwind or brass instrument to begin to sound decent it needs to be at least a couple of megs, and many are far larger than that. I have a piano that's 29 megs by itself! And it isn't close to the largest available.

Brass instruments in particular are a bit of a problem, especially trumpet. The problem is, even if you have a killer, unlooped sample of a real trumpet, because of the nature of the instrument, simply having the sound isn't enough. There are so many subtle variables, trying to make an artificial trumpet sound real is pretty tough. Having this perfect, pristine trumpet sound that's exactly the same every time doesn't give you a truly authentic sound. I've heard some that are better than others, but even the pro sounds I've heard aren't quite there. A composer I know said he has a brass file that uses a wide variety of types of attack samples - hard, soft, falls, rips, etc. to cover the range of what the instrument can do.

You can make your own, but you'd have to have some decent equipment to record a trumpet well, and it will be a heck of an involved process. I imagine there are professionally made brass soundfonts, you'd have to check out any demos to see if they're good enough for you.

Re: Brass instruments/AWE64 sound fonts

Reply #24 –
I came accross this site by sheer accident while searching in vain for realistic brass fonts. As a Cornet player and conductor I spend a considerable amount of time producing scores for brass band music and bought an AWE64 Gold sound card some years ago in the mistaken belief that sound cards could faithfully reproduce the brass sounds I was looking for i.e. Cornet, Flugel horn, Tenor Horn, Baritone, Euphonium, Trombone and Tuba. Like the rest of you I feel I've been conned and there is no such thing as a fair reproduction available even with the very latest cards and fonts. I would refer you to REPLY No.8 offered by Paul McBurney as the answer I twigged on to some time back. The sound card will quite happily play all the parts, even if a bit honky tonky, but it's not until the music is put in front of musicians that it comes to life and that's something that computers, however wonderfully they may be portrayed in the glossy magazines, cannot produce.
Sad thing to say but keep your hard earned cash in your pocket rather than spend it in the mistaken belief that your computer and sound card will produce real life brass sounds.

Re: Brass instruments/AWE64 sound fonts

Reply #25 –
What I do to make the sound more "authentic" is to push the mixer to the point of adding a little distortion while recording, and depending on whether or not "punch" is needed, use a very quick attack gating/compression that actually is "pumping" which is supposedly not a welcome artifact, but when blended in with a more "normal" signal often does the trick.

Re: Brass instruments/AWE64 sound fonts

Reply #26 –
I have just read most of the messages here and agree that to produce real brass sounds requires real brass instruments and players. However, if you would like to hear the nearest thing available in electronic form, have a listen to the cornet soloist sample on the Technics KN6000 keyboard. It really is as good as it will ever get from a machine. I am a cornet player and have been for 20 years. I don't claim that any sample can or ever will be as good as the real thing, but when arranging/trying ideas, it's great to have something better than the usual soundcard kazoo that is labelled trumpet. I have some really acceptable brass samples on minidisc if you would like to turn these into a soundfont for me, you could also have copies. They are not as good as that sound on the Technics, but they are really ok.

Re: Brass instruments/AWE64 sound fonts

Reply #27 –
i found a site in china (in english) that sells an adapter
that allows the awe 64,value,gold to use a normal 32mb memory simm ,the adapter costs $20-$30 us and plugs in like the memory upgrade from creative ,sorry i can't remember the site off hand .it also uses small ram sizes if you can't find 32mb ram .but awe64 has limitation it can only reconize 28mb of memory.thats why creative only sells 24mb memory modual to ad to awe64 gold with its 4mb

Re: Brass instruments/AWE64 sound fonts

Reply #28 –
The site is http://members.tripod.com/SIMMConn/

It'll ask you to download the simplified Chinese character set. Just click no (or yes, if you like).

Also, being tripod, it has popups.

A

Re: Brass instruments/AWE64 sound fonts

Reply #29 –
Sadly, the site says it was last updated in 2000, and it only takes money orders. :-(

A