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Topic: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones (Read 46392 times) previous topic - next topic

To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

I'd just like to share this note with you:

The other day I imported an orchestral piece into NoteWorthy that had 17 parts. I then tried to transpose the non-C instruments by:
- selecting the staff in question
- using the Tools, Transpose option to transpose in the right direction (e.g. alto sax down 3 semitones, clarinet and trumpet up 2 s.ts [I thought] ) and on the transpose tool I deselected the checkbox
- I then inserted the correct key signature (A major and D major)
- then selected the staff again and selected transpose staff +0 with the tools

And then by soloing the instrument, the melody came out all wrong. Of course I had to print 60 pages before I realised my mistake.

Since then I've done it slightly different:
- using CTRL-SHIFT up and down
- for alto sax going up one tone and adding the key sig. (A major)
- for clarinet/trumpet going down one tone and adding key sig. (D major)

And I am still not entirely sure how to get it right every time.

And even more so, I don't know why a feature to do this hasn't been incorporated for idiots like me.

Any comments?

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #1 –
I just did this, transposing to Bb instrument (Trumpet)
- Select staff
- Select tools
- Select Transpose
- Put in 2 semitones UP
- Select OK
Notes in staff are all raised by 1 full step and the key signature is automatically changed.

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #2 –
The transpose operation is as simple as the Transpose command on the Tools menu, as described by Don. One this to be careful about though: if the staff is currently in C, make sure that the key signature is present in the staff (NWC shows a key of C as an F natural while working in the editor). If a key signature is not present, then the staff will remain in the key of C after a transpose operation.

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #3 –
Eb Alto saxophone music is printed 9 semitones above the concert note that the alto saxophonist will sound when playing the written note.
to make a "printed" part for the alto from a 'concert' staff, proceed as explained by Don and Support except Tools\Transpose Staff\ +9 semitones\
Bb Tenor Sax is +2 like trumpet, Bb Clarinet is +2 also
Eb Baritone sax is -3
Bb Soprano Sax is +14
Bb Bass Sax is -10, as is Bb Bass Clarinet

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #4 –
Small correction - Tenor sax is +14 from concert sound and Soprano is +2 - the same as clarinet.
And you have to be careful some of the other instruments eg. Baritone are written an octave above where they sound.
Forgetting to add a C major key signature is the usual source of error.

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #5 –
::Forgetting to add a C major key signature is the usual source of error.

Thankyou; this solve my problem.

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #6 –
NOOOOOO,
I told it true, soprano voice is higher than tenor. Tenor sax +2, soprano sax +14, alto sax +9, baritone sax-3 with concert pitch as base.
Lest we have some sort of up/down +/- confusion: Tenor sax middle C will play as concert pitch Bb5. Soprano Sax middle C will play as concert pitch Bb6.

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #7 –
Thankyou; your help has been so useful.

I usually have my scores checked by players if I don't know the instrument very well. I also get string players to draw the bowings on the score. (I haven't checked if NoteWorthy has these symbols)

This discussion on transposing might be useful to go in NoteWorthy's help file if it's not already there.

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #8 –
Perhaps it's my poor communication that was in error - it often is.
The original query was related to producing transposed parts from a concert score.
If you have written all the parts on the score in concert pitch and wish to tranpose and print the parts for transposing instruments you must transpose the individual instrumental staves as follows.

Bb Trumpet - transposition +2 semitones.
Eb Alto Saxophone - transposition +9 semitones.
Bb Tenor Saxophone - transposition +14 semitones.
Eb Baritone Saxophone - transposition +21 semitones - usually from concert score bass clef to written treble clef.
The Baritone is pitched one octave lower than the Alto Saxophone.
Bb Soprano Saxophone - transposition +2 semitones.
Bb Clarinet - transposition +2 semitones. Clarinet in Bb, Bb Soprano Saxophone and Bb Trumpet are pitched the same.

In terms of the concert pitch of written Middle C - that is C5 just below the treble staff on the written part for each of these instruments they will sound as follows:

Bb Trumpet written C5 - sounds as concert Bb4 - 2 semitones lower than written.
Eb Alto Saxophone written C5 - sounds as concert Eb4 - 9 semitones lower than written.
Bb Tenor Saxophone written C5 - sounds as concert Bb3 - 14 semitones lower than written.
Eb Baritone Saxophone written C5 - sounds as concert Eb3 - below bass clef - 21 semitones lower than written.
Bb Soprano Saxophone written C5 - sounds as concert Bb4 - 2 semitones lower than written.
Bb Clarinet written C5 - sounds as concert Bb4 - 2 semitones lower than written.

There are a few other interesting transpositions you may like to follow up - Horn in F, Cor Anglais, Alto Flute and for real fun try the brass band instruments.

Having been an alto/baritone/clarinet/flute player for over 40 years and a transposing professional copyist since 1972 I hope I've finally got it right!

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #9 –
OOPS!
Darn it, age and experience triumphs again.
My last tenor transpose went high out of range so I minus 12'd it and forgot why I was at +2.
Sorry.

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #10 –
I have enjoyed this discussion of 'transposing', and discovered the method of 'semitones' used in NWC. This was and is somewhat confusing except as described by Barry above for changes from 'concert' key. I am a trumpet player and do brass quintet stuff, and many times transpose things like the following:
Horn native key = F
BbTrumpet Transpose to = C
Trombone or C Tuba = Bb
or Horn native key = Ab (4 flats)
BbTrumpet Transpose to = Bb
Tromb or C tuba = Db (5 flats)
Any combination of the above is possible.

This becomes confusing in 'semitones' when one knows the "FROM" key and the "DESIRED" key UP or DOWN

Let me throw this out as an OPTIONAL Transpose method:
KEY TO KEY either UP or DOWN
ie F to Bb DOWN; this would include KEY to SAME KEY UP or DOWN and the result would be an OCTIVE( up or down)
This is the method used by a previously used composing program by me and it worked very well. It also had automatic note placement with change of clef; the notes would be proper but might be an octive off.

Don Ruckman

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #11 –
Could someone help my son? He just started playning tenor sax. Is the instrument pitched at B-flat? If you play a C-major concert scale what is your starting note?

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #12 –
Tenor is a Bb saxophone.
When your son plays a tenor sax C he will be playing concert Bb.
If he were playing a C major concert scale he would start with a tenor D and play tenor sax D major scale.
Will Email a little NWC C Major scale and its transpose to tenor sax D Major.
You can copy this and use Tools\Transpose Staff to create the rest of the scales.
Playing concert scales when starting sax is most unusual, usual is to play tenor sax scales when starting and branch out later into transposing.
Advice: good tenor player who is good with kids (but strict) as private teacher for your beginner. Bad habits are hard to correct but easy to develop on the saxophone.
Good luck, the foam rubber ear plugs are best.

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #13 –
Sorry for sounding ignorant, but
I have written a piece of music on a program similar to Noteworthy Composer.
My problem is that I have written every instrument in 3 flats
does the above apply from 3 flats as it does from C concert?

So will it work if I just + or - like explained above?

so If I were to transpose an instrument in Bb like trumpet

Eb + 2 semitones F major? am I right

thankyou

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #14 –
Yes.
Tools\Transpose Staff +2 with udate playback checked will do the key change and the note movements automatically so your trumpeter can play from the written music and NWC will still play the correct pitches.

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #15 –
Someone please clarify for me: How do I transpose soprano sax from concert key? What is the interval? If i'm at concert C than soprano sax is playing: ????
I thought it was a minor second (1/2 step) but i'm not sure
Thanks

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #16 –
The soprano sax sounds a whole step (2 semitones) lower than written; or, conversely, is written 2 semitones higher than it sounds. (For a list of all the sax transpositions, see https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=1649.msg8691#msg8691 ).

A soprano sax part that is to sound in C major would be notated in D major. The NWC staff assigned to the instrument would be need a playback transposition ("Transposition" on the MIDI tab of Staff Properties) of -2 in order to sound at concert pitch.

The easiest way to do this in NWC is to write the sax part at concert pitch and then use the Transpose Staff tool. Transpose up 2 semitones and check the box labeled "Update staff play back transposition".

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #17 –
This is in relpy to Richie Barshay: The soprano sax would be playing a D, if the concert note was a C. I happen to be a soprano sax player, and I have to transpose from concert key to soprano key all the time. It's just a whole step, but boy it gets rough! Other instruments that share this key are the Bb clarinet, the Bb trumpet, and the Tenor saxophone. So just in case you're writing for those other instruments, maybe that will aid in your endevors. Thank you.

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #18 –
All Bb horns except tenor sax written up 1 whole tone (MMajor 2nd.
Bb tenor written up a Major 9th .
Eb alto written up major 6 th
French horn written up a perfect th5

all C instuments flute, oboe, as written stays in cocert key.

trombone, tuba, as written stays in concert key.

eb baritone sax a 6th and a octive.

this one is the hard one: Bb Baritone is a Horn
that has two parts. one in bass cleff played as written
and treble cleff that is played like a Bb tenor sax
which is written like up a whole tone and a octive
which is called a major 9th in music.
I will tell you how all insturments get their KEY name ?
When the Horn plays its written C the note that it sounds
into concert pitch is the key of the horn.
Th e Bb Clarinet when it plays its C sounds a Bb concert
so it is called a Bb clarinet, When a Eb alto Sax sounds its written C it sounds a Eb so it is called a Eb Alto sax

So when a flute plays its written C it sounds C and we
say that the Flute, oboe, piano, trombone, and bells
are C insturments.
c to eb is is called minor 3rd but
if its Eb to c it is called a major 6th, as you can see 3 bebecomes 6,s and minors be come major.

how many sharps does G# major have, There are two answers.

send me the answer for fun.

don frank ret Army Bandsmen

P.S don,t mine my spelling

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #19 –
Don't forget the C instruments that transpose. These end up sounding in concert key, but in a different octave than written: piccolo and celesta, an octave higher; glockenspiel, 2 octaves higher; double bass and contrabassoon, an octave lower.

As far as I'm concerned, the answer to your question about how many sharps G# major has is: "too many".

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #20 –
> how many sharps does G# major have, There are two answers.
Answer 1: 8.
Answer 2: 7, plus a double sharp.
Answer 3: Grant's, which is the one I use.
Answer 4: (The enharmonic answer) - None. It's really Ab, which has four flats and no sharps whatsoever.

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #21 –
So, you hear an enharmonic modulation coming a mile away...

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #22 –
About rep.19 : I'd add Bass guitar that plays actually one octave lower than written.
Fred, ain't it the same for guitar too, btw ?

About G#M sharps number: 6, plus a double sharp; or 7, with one being double. Grant's answer is yet the best! But I'd read it as AbM too (though one won't play it the same in that case)

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #23 –
I am using NWC to transpose a piece of music, written in C.  I need to transpose from the Bass Clef (with a Bb in the key sig)  to the treble cleff and then transpose that to fit the French horn (F instrument).  How do I do that?  Also, is the trombone a C instrument? THanks!

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #24 –
Trombone is indeed a C instrument.  To transpose quickly, you could move everything up two steps and then change the clef. Then, of course, you need to fix the key signature and accidentials, the new key would be C.

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #26 –
Trombone is indeed a Bb instrument...which doesn't transpose.  The overtones are built on Bb, not C.  Talk about making one's brain ache...

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #27 –
Huh!?! I play trombone and when I play a C, I get a C, I never have to transpose against the piano. This Bb idea, I think, is an outdated one...

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #28 –
IIRC, there are trombones in C and F (not the same instrument; tenor and bass), and Bc and Eb.
In France we rather use C and F trombones...

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #29 –
Francis, I don't think there's really any disagreement here.

Saul was making two points.  The first is that the fundamental pitch of his trombone is Bb, based on the length of the tubing.  There's no reason to doubt this.  The second is that despite this fact, the trombone doesn't transpose, which means exactly what you mean when you say "when I play a C, I get a C".

A glance at almost any orchestration text will also confirm marsu's point that trombones come in a variety of sizes with (therefore) a variety of fundamental pitches.

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #30 –
Yes a trombone is naturally a Bb instrument, and does not transpose.......unless you play it in a Brass Band in England!! My trombonist friend (who plays in my church music group) learnt his music in the brass band world. He has learnt the notes in such a way as that he needs his music transposed (and put up an octave into treble clef). He can also just about play from bass clef untransposed - this is not such a difficult feat as it sounds, as he still thinks of the notes as in their transposed positions, he just reads the bass clef differently to someone who really knows what the notes are in it - eg the bottom space he would read as a B not an A, so he plays what he calls a B, which then sounds as an A. Neat eh? Its OK as long as he never needs to play another instrument from bass clef.

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #31 –
OK, I get it now...and an F attachment (held down) makes it a French Horn, right? And then there's converting an F attachment into an E attachment...

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #32 –
For F to E, cross the Channel...

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #33 –
Sorry, for F to E, you'd better cross the Pyrenees...

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #34 –
No Yves :)
Pour passer de F à E, tu franchis les Pyrénées, ok pour la langue française :)
but in english, to go from F to E, you cross the channel ;-P

Worse: for F to G: cross the Rhin; mais traverse le Rhin, et tu passes de F à A ;)

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #35 –
Ou peut etre, pour passer de F a A, on doit franchis La Manche :)

Please excuse my horrendous French!  It's been a long time since I left school, and English-speaking people are notoriously lazy at learning other languages!

Parce-que bien sure, tout le monde peut parler Anglais, n'est-ce pas?

Robin

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #36 –
Oder wenn man das Rhein passiert, kann man von D als F passiert.

(My German is even worse than my French, my Spanish is virtually non-existent, and fortunately, there isn't a key of I, or I'd try and inflict my Italian on you!)

Robin

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #37 –
From Y to M:

It's language-independant. E is the international abbreviation for Spain. Great Britain is GB. (See the ovals indicating the countries at the back of cars.)

Otherwise, if it's just based on the initial letter, you might as well have to cross Germany and the Baltic Sea (Estonia), Italy, the Mediterranean Sea, the Suez Canal and the Red Sea (Ethiopia, Erythrea), the pond + the Andes (Ecuador), or the Channel + Saint-George's Channel (Eire). :-)

Or did I miss anything?

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #38 –
Robin, your french may be as good as my english, und idem für Deutsch :)

from M(or D) to Y: well, I think the list is quite complete, even though at first I thought only by crossing the closest "small" frontiers/borders. You're much better than me regarding Geography ;) What about crossing Caraibbean Sea from F(non metropolitan I confess) to E(UA)?

About international abbreviation: yes, you're right, and the same goes for internet extensions, which causes surprises to some people who really wonder why spain is .es, or switzerland .ch :) Not to mention the countries where the letters are really bizarre...

Back to the subject: Thank you, Simon, for the Musical Instrument Range Chart resource. It's really useful, especially the final graphic!

Do not miss also the Compasses.zip file on the Scriptorium, thanks to Andrew et al.

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #39 –
To be on subject:

The Instrument Range Chart is very interesting indeed. Not easy to read, but interesting.

Warning: People allergic to off-topic comments shouldn't read further. You've been warned.

Off-topic (I can't help it):

What's surprising with the ISO abbreviations (it's also used for currencies: CHF = Swiss franc, ESP = the defunct Spanish peseta) is rather its inconsistency. Why does Spain's comes from its local name, but not Albania's (Shqiperia = AL) or Greece's (Hellas = GR)?

BTW, for those who wonder, CH is the abbreviation of Confoederatio Helvetica, Latin for Helvetic Confederation. Stranger is Benin's (BJ): since there are many countries in B (the letter, not the key), they added the J, which is the letter attributed to Africa. (?!!)

Oh, and just for info, if you cross the Carribean Sea from Martinique or Guadeloupe, you'll reach Venezuela rather than the US.

OK, I shut up now. :-)

Y

PS: Geography has always been one of my fortes.

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #40 –
Or airports. Especially Canadian ones. YVR for Vancouver is a stretch, but how did Toronto get YYZ?

No matter, Rush wrote a great tune called "YYZ" about - you guessed it, the TO airport. :)

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #41 –
<off topic>
Fred, Airports names are related to the IATA norm --at least, that's what I've learned when I worked for the SITA (ATIS in english). And strange names reason is, as for Benin, the fact that the most logical abbreviation was already taken.

Yves, I agree for ESP and UKP or other currencies, the ISO country codeis suffixe with the initial letter of the local currency; there is "of course" the exception of EUR, unless it's EUE or UEE ?? I'm still thinking in FRF anyway...
I suspect that the ISO country names where made by some francophone people (after all, GRèce, ESpagne and ConfédérationHelvétique are correctly named for them...)

About "off topic": I'll try to refrain, being afraid to become a troll (more detailed en francais ici)
</off topic>

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #42 –
Ah sí, E en español es para "and" cuando el proximo letra empezar en "i".

Yah my spanish is terrible, too, but I thought I'd try it out while everyone else is...

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #43 –
Sorry to intrude here : Yves what have you done of the French  translation of the user manual? Answer in the relevant part on "French  translation"

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #44 –
Please replace previous by :
Sorry to intrude here : Yves what have you done of the French translation of the user manual? Answer in the relevant part on "French Version is one available?" https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=2932

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #45 –
To Jean Cifrane:
I think maybe Yves Grasset
a) is in a coma
b) is off planet on vacation
c) is blowing you off
d) tired of seeing your name in all these irrelevant postings.

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #46 –
has this forum really been going on for this long?

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #47 –
Since about two years before this one.

Re: To trumpets, clarinets and saxophones

Reply #49 –
Hey, i play the clarinet in the brack band, and i've been having trouble with my Eb hey, and my G key, anyone know what's wrong?