Small bug?

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Small bug?

2004-07-06 08:23 pm

I'm still at the office ('tis 22:30pm) but I wanted to mention a bug I've experimented yesterday.
I had a note with a forced natural sign, and I press Audit Bar lines (or Audit Beam, I can't recall). Anyway, the natural sign disappeared. I know it didn't have to exist since the note was already natural (courtesy accid.), but I think this behaviour shouldn't be as is.
I'll confirm as soon as I'm home.
Marsu

Re: Small bug?

Reply #1 – 2004-07-06 10:53 pm

I confirm what my memories told: in a new staff, paste the following items:

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Bass
|Key|Signature:F#,C#,G#
|TimeSig|Signature:Common
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:b4|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:b1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:-3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-4|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:n1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:Whole
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Now press Alt, T, B (or click Tools / Audit Bar lines). The last natural E is changed.

Re: Small bug?

Reply #2 – 2004-07-06 11:46 pm

The act of auditing bar lines triggers first a force of accidentals, then after the bar audit, an accidental audit. This ensures that accidentals are set correctly with new bar line placement.

Re: Small bug?

Reply #3 – 2004-07-07 07:27 am

Would it not be possible to include "advisory" accidentals, or whatever the technical term is, automatically? The rule is pretty clear - if the last instance of a particular note was an accidental, the next non-accidental instance of the same note, should display an accidental that matches the key signature.

Re: Small bug?

Reply #4 – 2004-07-08 02:52 am

...but in parenthesis...

Re: Small bug?

Reply #5 – 2004-07-15 11:58 am

To NWO: this explains the behaviour observed. I think I won't use the bars' audit in some cases then.
To Robin: I suppose you meant to have an additional option for this. A JSBach's score, for instance, would be cluttered by such courtesy accidentals, if it had to be set on each and every note.
To Joey: yes, it's clearer, though not mandatory. Personally I prefer the ( ) version, otherwise I wonder if I've not missed a change of key sig (which happens in playing in first sight ("déchiffrage")).

conclusion: an extra option for "forced accidentals" would be great, especially if it would allow the parenthesis :-)

Re: Small bug?

Reply #6 – 2004-08-30 01:14 am

I'd prefer to see three types of accidentals. The first type is "standard" - flats naturals and sharps used in a bar (measure). These would be subject to the standard rules of notation, which NWC does quite well. (I'd like an option switch for accidentals in different octaves, though).

The second type of accidental is "courtesy" accidentals. These usually occur in a bar (measure) soon after a "standard" accidental. They're not required by strict rules of notation, and NWC removes them in a bar audit. These would need to be flagged as a note property, so that NWC doesn't remove them. They would also need to work correctly when transposed, or at least be searchable for manual checking after transposing.

The third type is "reminder" accidentals. These are in parentheses. They usually appear just after a key change, but could also appear where the player might be expecting something else (for example, right hand has a C# "standard" accidental, but left hand has a "reminder" C natural). These would also need to be flagged as a note property. Transposing probably wouldn't be a problem, as they should be in the key signature, otherwise they'd be "standard" or "courtesy" accidentals.

As a significant complication, I'd like to see mixed types in chords!

Re: Small bug?

Reply #7 – 2004-08-30 01:45 am

A "reminder" accidental and a "courtesy" accidental are the same thing, and are properly referred to as courtesy accidentals. This is according to all notation books/manuals I have read.

Re: Small bug?

Reply #8 – 2004-08-30 02:18 am

Yes, many of my books and manuals also say the same thing, but some don't. And in practice accidentals are indeed used in these three different ways, even if we don't realise it.

I'm sure you must have played music composed or edited by a wide variety of poeple, and I'm sure you will have seen each of these cases: a "normal" accidental, a not-strictly-necessary accidental just after a bar line cancelling an accidental in a previous bar (measure), and an accidental in parentheses just after a key change.

All of these cases make the music easier to read, especially where the player doesn't have hours to study or analyse it.

Re: Small bug?

Reply #9 – 2004-08-30 03:02 pm

I support Ewan's suggestion.

As to auditing bar lines, I find that if I've made a mistake, the audit bar lines give's me a result that I don't like - splitting notes across the right bar lines.

Starting with this,

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:0
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:0
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:0
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:0
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

I end up with this

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:0
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0^
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:Half,Dotted|Pos:0^
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:Half,Dotted|Pos:0^
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Rest|Dur:Half,Dotted
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

It's easier for me to compare one staff to another in multipart scores, or to add a temporary staff with the rests and bar lines to see if bar lines add up (see next post)

Re: Small bug?

Reply #10 – 2004-08-30 03:03 pm

Like this

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:Whole
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Re: Small bug?

Reply #11 – 2004-08-31 01:18 am

a not-strictly-necessary accidental just after a bar line cancelling an accidental in a previous bar
This is the wrong one - it just doesn't belong.
There are many other threads discussing this (but I'm not about to go searching for them right now).
Only two are really needed: a "normal" accidental, and an accidental in parentheses, but not "just after a key change." They may be used when the 2nd trombone (for instance) has A naturals and the 3rd trombone has A flats, to let them know they're not in unison. They also may be used when there have been many flats in quite a few bars, and a new bar returns to naturals. This use is "confirmation that there isn't a typo." There are other uses as well. When an editor employs these uses without the parentheses, that's just wrong.

Re: Small bug?

Reply #12 – 2004-08-31 04:26 am

Yep, I could almost live with that: Having all courtesy and reminder accidentals always in parentheses.

Except that I play a multiphonic instrument, and when you have a chord full of accidentals, parentheses get in the way. Not only is the printed information cluttered, the visual appearance of the information is different. (Single line players sometimes don't realise that chord recognition is similar to how we read words - not by individual notes, but by how the conglomeration looks.)

When I'm writing out music I try to remember that the whole point of most written music is to communicate to the player in real time. Things that are more likely to fit with the player's expectations are much more helpful than alternatives that are more "correct".

My own practice with NWC is to include both courtesy accidentals and key-signature-change reminder accidentals, all without parenthesis, despite the fact that they're not "correct". Feed-back from players suggests that I stick with this practice!

But I think the OP was asking for user-inserted accidentals that don't vanish after bar-line audits. I still think this would be a great idea, regardless of parentheses!

Re: Small bug?

Reply #13 – 2005-11-09 03:08 am

More than a year has passed, but we haven't seen any of these accidentals...

Are there any plans about them? Are we going to have them in NWC3 or NWC9 or whatever?

I really need them, I cannot do without courtesy accidentals in parentheses...

Re: Small bug?

Reply #14 – 2005-11-09 06:51 am

It is of course possible to place a courtesy accidental as text. Simply select the NWC2STDA font as a user font and place a text object using that user font.

This way you can add your parentheses as well, you just need to add a second text entry with the correct font and position it such that the parentheses surround the accidental.

Not as neat as a proper courtesy accidental but functional from a players perspective.

Lawrie