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Multiple measures of rest

In orchestral scores, many times an instrument has a rest of a large number of rests. Usually this is rendered with a whole rest and a number indicating the number of rests on top of that.

I would really appreciate, that NWC would print those rests that way automatically. So I can print a full orchestral score as well as a single part from the same .NWC file.

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #1 –
Hear, hear! That might be an easy way round the problem of a part starting half-way through a score, rather than having to hit Tab, Space several hundred times, or counting out the right number of rest bars to copy and paste.
While you're at it, you could give the option not to print a staff if there are no notes on it for a whole line.

Robin

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #2 –
Here Robin,

I asked about suppressing blank staves in printing a long time ago

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #3 –
It doesn't hurt to keep asking - we may even get it!
 

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #4 –
You might consider using a local repeat, like so.

(1) measure bar.
(2) text (number of measures of silence)
(3) local repeat begin [hidden]
(4) whole-note rest.
(5) local repeat end [hidden, with repeat count set same as the text above shows.]
(6) measure bar.

This will both print and play correctly.

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #5 –
Stephen: Alas, I am not at my own computer these days, so I cannot work with NWC2 right now. If I could do it, I would try what you wrote above.

What is desired is for a staff to entirely disappear for one or more systems, if the inbstrument is silent throughout. That is, no staff lines visible. In plain-text, imagine a flute playing with a piano. There are several measures when both play, followed by a passage with only piano, followed by both. F= flute staff measure, T=piano treble staff measure, B= piano bass staff measure. What I would like to see is this, when printed:

F F F F
T T T T
B B B B

F F F
T T T
B B B

T T T T
B B B B

T T T T
B B B B

F F F F
T T T T
B B B B

F F F
T T T
B B B

Where I would probably need to choose my own system breaks, so that the measures work out correctly. Notice that the third and fourth systems do not have empty flute; they have no flute at all, nor do they have large white space.

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #6 –
Ah. Yes, I'd like something like that. But to describe exactly how it should work -- at a level of detail suitable for implementation -- is much trickier than it looks. Do even the big boys (Sibelius, Finale) do that?

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #7 –
I believe they do. And although making it happen automatically would be very tricky, it is easy enough to formulate a user specified method for staff suppression and for multi-bar rests.

For staff suppression simply specify as a property of each bar line that the following measure must/need not be printed.  If all the bars of a staff in a particular system need not be printed then suppress the staff (even if it actually contains printable symbols other than rests - that's up to the user to sort out).

For multi-measure rests specify another property of the bar line to say that the following bar should be printed as such, collected together with any other similarly marked contiguous bars. Again it wouldn't matter what was actually inside the bar itself!

And a third bar line property, whilst we're on the subject, is one to increment the bar count (and hence the printed measure number), default of one but any other figure could be inserted.

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #8 –
Indeed, quite tricky! There's also the matter of where page breaks would appear.

If you didn't know: NWC1 and NWC2 let you do this, but not automatically. You have to make metafiles of each page, place them into a word document, and crop what you don't want to show. This is also tricky, but do-able (I've done it).

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #9 –
Sorry Robert, but a workaround like that doesn't qualify as "letting one do this" in the program any more than printing the pages out, cutting them up and photocopying them without the rests does.

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #10 –
I agree with Geoff. However, I must say that my personal need for such a facility is actually zero. And yet (!) I see that this sort of functionality would be handy to several composers/transcribers of small ensemble (especially duet) music.

I guess it comes down to "how many people want the next feature to be included?"
(Along with "how hard is it to implement?" ;-)

A

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #11 –
It's more for large orchestral scores. Staff suppression when printing the full score; multi-bar rests for printing the individual parts.

BTW, my proposed scheme needs a small modification. Multi-bar rests need to be split at rehearsal letters, time signatures  and tempo changes. So instead of marking bar-lines as suggested, it would be better to mark the bar-lines that are actually going to be suppressed.

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #12 –
Actually, I have done it on numerous occasions. So, I agree with Geoff (and others) that the feature would be useful.

Since my application (SATB, sometimes with simple accompaniment) rarely exceeds four printed pages - often less, the WMF/EMF "cut and paste" (which is exactly what it is) does not take more time than if I had to work within the program to figure out where the system breaks must go. But for a longer composition, that would be a real pain.

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #13 –
I've just printed one song that I transcribed, and sure enough, it's got all those multi-measure rests: a solo with a choir backup, where, say, out of the 72 measures, the choir only sings on 20. And that printed those whole-measure rests, too.
It would really be a nice feature to be able to suppress the printing of these measures that only have whole rest in them, whether automatically in NWC internal program logic, or set manually by the user.
Thanks!

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #14 –
A workaround, even though not elegant, might be to break the file into 3 or more songs.  Let's say you have 32 bars with only piano, 16 bars with piano and vocal, 32 bars with piano only.

Bars 1 to 32 would go into file 1 with only 2 staves.
Bars 17 to 48 are in file 2 with 3 staves
Bars 49 to the end go into file 3.

This of course would only work where your disappearing staff can begin and end on one page - but that's easy enough to control.

Since this is really just a printing problem, you could write the entire file as one file, then resave it times to unique filenames, chopping the unwanted measures out of these new files.

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #15 –
If you have to fill bars of rests, write the whole rest and a single bar line, make them invisible, highlight them, copy them, move to the end of the staff and hold down control-v for a few seconds.  It only takes a moment to produce a couple of hundred copies added to the end of the line, and it's easy to cut the excess ones after you've finished the tune.

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #16 –
While I'm here, here's an example of multibar rests as per my reply 15.  The user font is Boxmark2, size 20, Bold.

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|TimeSig|Signature:Common
|Rest|Dur:Whole|Visibility:Never
|Text|Text:"   [ 4 ]     "|Font:User2|Pos:-2|Wide:Y|Placement:AsStaffSignature
|Bar|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:Whole|Visibility:Never
|Bar|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:Whole|Visibility:Never
|Bar|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:Whole|Visibility:Never
|Bar|Style:MasterRepeatOpen
|Text|Text:"A"|Font:User2|Pos:13|Justify:Right|Placement:AsStaffSignature|Visibility:TopStaff
|Dynamic|Style:mf|Pos:-11
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:#2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
Having said that, I only started this reply to ask Peter how to "specify as a property of each bar line that the following measure must/need not be printed."  and then "specify another property of the bar line to say that the following bar should be printed as such"

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #17 –
I agree with Peter Edwards. His reply #7 makes perfect sense, and does what we (some of us) need, without resorting to rocket science implementation.

It can't be more difficult than that. It makes it 'quite' easy for users to understand and use it, and it does not appear to be a gargantuan programming exercise.
Should we create a Multiple Rest & Suppress Unwanted Staves Fund for the Worthy Notes?
Rob.

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #18 –
I agree Peter's his reply 7 makes sense, all I'm asking is how those commands are done.  I don't see it as an option when I set the properties of the bar line, so I'm interested in how to do it.

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #19 –
They're not! That's the point, we are trying to devise a way of implementing suppression of staves and grouping of silent bars into multi-bar rests without the hassle of doing it intelligently. At the moment neither is possible although the multi-bar rest is fudgeable with Boxmarks.

So to restate my reply #7, as modified by #11. A bar-line should have two extra properties. Suppressible and Collapsible.

If all the bar-lines on a stave on any particular system are suppressible then the stave should be suppressed regardless of what notes etc are actually on it.

If a bar-line is collapsible then the subsequent bar(s) can be amalgamated with the previous bar and a multi-bar rest inserted. Again regardless of what is actually in the bars - that is up to the user to sort out.

The two attributes are used in different circumstances. The collapsible is where you are printing out a subset of the full score. Suppressible where you don't want all the instruments all the time in the full score. Although, to be fair, there is considerable potential for overlap.

The difference is that bar-lines with rehearsal marks and bars with tempo changes and pauses still need to be printed out in a single part, but should be suppressed when there are other staves already visible.

So not difficult to implement but, with care, fully effective.

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #20 –
David,

Your clip didn't work for me.  Check this out (in print preview, to). The rest font is mine.

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Bar
|Bar|Style:LocalRepeatOpen|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:Whole|Visibility:Never
|Bar|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:Whole|Visibility:Never
|Bar|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:Whole|Opts:Stem=Down|Visibility:Never
|Bar|Visibility:Never
|Text|Text:"AC"|Font:User2|Pos:-1|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Text|Text:"6"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:7|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Rest|Dur:Whole|Opts:Stem=Down
|Bar|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:Whole|Opts:Stem=Down|Visibility:Never
|Bar|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:Whole|Opts:Stem=Down|Visibility:Never
|Bar|Style:LocalRepeatClose|Repeat:6|Visibility:Never
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #21 –
With all good and honest intentions, we are overstepping the mark. The NWC2 Beta is, basically, that. A beta test, designed to catch and eliminate bugs. Not to add to the wish list.
But the box is open, and the lid won't shut easily. I would say that by now, NWC2 can be released as fully functional, and well worth its money.

OTOH...
The way you put it, Peter, describes very well what we have been asking for, for a number of years. So if wishes could be granted (Christmas 2005?) this one would be great. Suppressible and collapsible - that sounds good.
As we say in Holland: Gaan met die banaan. Rough translation: Let's go do it. Can I help? ;-)
Rob.

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #22 –
Robin, did you create a file with Userfont2 set to Boxmark2, 20, Bold?  That's all I've done to make the rest work nicely. Anyway, if that doesn't work, download my  "Multibarrests example.pdf" (88 KB) at http://s2.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3362CE3E779A7B3F0D7A07256391835C  to see the result I'm explaining.

I like your example, the only thing I'd like to suggest is finding a way to make the line represented by the whole rest much longer, and put serifs (?) on it.  It should be of somewhat variable length and the number should sit right over the centre (as it does in your example).  (Not sure what your text item AC means.)

=========        =========        =======

Peter, thank you for clarifying.  I missed that this was a wish, not something we already could do.  Oops.

Acknowledging that some items need to be kept visible is a given, I have a couple more questions or comments:

I agree a collapsible bar line is (somewhat) desirable. I think you mean that this feature would display only the beginning and ending bar lines of a group of bars, but would also display a multibar rest symbol which includes a horizontal line and a number, if a staff was being printed by itself (or perhaps with another staff with the identical rest duration, i.e., left and right hand piano staves).  However on a proper score, we would see the individual whole rests and bar lines, and no multibar rest symbol?  I think my example "Multibarrests example.pdf" illustrates both needs fairly well.

I'm not sure I understand the suppressible concept.  What would it achieve that we can't already do by hiding the staff or making elements invisible?  Have you considered that the element properties visibility option can be set to Top staff only?

Would there really be a need for collapsibles or suppressibles, provided we have a native symbol for the multibar rest sign, that conforms to the normal long line, serifs, with a number above the centre?  I don't think the methodology I use is a workaround, I think Eric (through providing for visibility options) and Dominique (with his Boxmark2 font) have given us almost exactly the best way, and very easy method, to achieve multibar rests.  The only improvement would be an embedded multibar rest sign that could compute the number of bars and remove the need to use Dominique's font.  You'd have to be able to set a starting and ending point for the line, perhaps by clicking an insertion point before the first (invisible) rest and after the last one.

==========    =========      ===========

Rob, the forum is a convenient way to discuss ideas - I find it more convenient than the newsgroup.  NWC, for good reasons, won't reveal what wishes have been made, so users can only introduce ideas for discussion in the forums or newsgroups.

Having said that, although there are still a couple of minor tweaks needed, I agree with you about the readiness of the program.  I think NWC2 is at a stage that it could very credibly be released right now.

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #23 –
Probably all that is needed is to be able to force page breaks at the final stage preparatory for printing. It is arguable how much page setting should be attempted in NWC.

I have found a working method which enables me to deal with an extended choral work with organ and soloist having long passages.

The whole work is set with all the required systems layered as needed (I need 4 for the organ. This preserves style, margins and bar numbers.

Before printing the work has to be sectioned into pages. The opening two ½ pages are organ and solo so the choral staves are hidden and the first three pages copied to separate EMF files. Pages 1& 2 are OK. The problem is now on page 3. It can be trimmed in Open Office or I can take it directly in Pagemaker which my usual way. In Open Office if it is imported as a graphic in the drawing module the unwanted systems can be cut there and a partial p3 saved.

Where it changes in the middle of p3 we want the solo to drop out. Now, hide the solo and restore the choir. In the bar immediately before new changes, force a page break. This can be done by setting a system break for the new section and inserting a non-breaking space (alt 0160) with the 'keep width' option. The trick is to set the font size of the space char to, say, 10,000 points! I'm surprised it's possible but it is. The right size space will almost certainly push the system over onto the next page. This keeps bar numbers intact, etc. The new page which is the continuation of p3 can now be copied, taken into Open Office, trimmed and pasted into place to complete p3. Save the new p3.

Next reset the forced page break to exclude the bars already done and repeat in a similar manner as required for a new section.

If using Open Office you will have a succesion of pages in sxd format. The Open Office PDF output is not recognised by Ghostscript and seem to have some general compatibity problems. However if you print direct to a postscript driver from Open Office it works well. (My preferred driver is an old one that Microsoft supplied, I think with Publisher 97).Ghostscript is used next next to take the postscript page files to graphic ones. It always works to produce a 600bpi mono ( about 4Mb/page) and I convert those to TIFF (using PhotoIpact).

This may sound a little laborious, but the final layout is quick by comparison to the rest. With a series of pages as graphic files it is easy to setup the book required.

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #24 –
David

Suppressible works on a full score on a system by system basis. The stave is only suppressed when the instrument is silent. Look at an orchestral score where the number of staves varies continually system by system depending on which instruments are playing.

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #25 –
The intuitive approach to a multibar rest would be: a whole rest should have an atribute which is 1 by default, but can be changed to a higher whole number.
The standard Noteworthy approach would be to leave it to the user to line up staffs! So, if you have a 5 bar rest in one staff and on the next staff you don't, the bar numbering is not the same, vertically. Correctness of usage is left to the user. No extra checking done by the program - and none wanted or needed.

Any workaround is still a workaround, and a putteroffer.

Rob.

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #26 –
I'm not privy to the NWC programming but some of the problems of layout variation seem to be because Noteworthy has dynamic bar sizing. This gives it strength for adding lyrics. The internal justification of systems must be very tricky. I am quite happy for a system to be cut short for the present tradeoff of not having to try and fit measures better than already done.

There are two separate problems : printing orchestral parts and printing emsemble works of say 300 bars where there may be organ and choir for 150, organ and solo for 100 and all for another 50 and the whole should be printed as three consecutive sections.

The multibar rests typically appear in printing orchestral parts. One way to do it could be to have a property for a bar line: 'MultiBarbarRest', and allow the insertion of the number of bars it applies to. The rest could then be inserted in the print stream automatically.

Also The system break could be modified to allow for the insertion of a space in say mm before the next system, using the last barline as a refernce line. So a system break inserted at where one would normally occur would appear as normal, but spaced down as required. This would would allow for, amonst other things, queing to be inserted in the space created.

Further if the layout menu was modified to allow for multiple page layouts -by name or number, these could be referred to and changed at a system break. The space created before the new changed system layout could be used for titling or whatever. Of course the system break could occur partway through the usual system; the rule of extending the last system should then apply: if set. do it, else the system terminates and the new layout commences below.

It would be nice for a program to do everything but every time I think of that I remember those who do their word processing and publishing in Excel.

(Next thing is selective orchestral group brackets.)

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #27 –
David, I like the way you did your |---7---| in the "Multibarrests example.pdf" i.e. the "7" is in the staff rather than above it.  I've been doing that for about five years now because I've found that the "normal" way can often conflict with other instructions above the staff.  My problem then was that I couldn't read some of the numbers because of the staff lines.  What I did to overcome this was insert a square (from a dingbats font) highlighted white, placed immediately before the |---x---| and the staff lines become "invisible."  Now I see fine.

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #28 –
David,

The AC is from my font, Rests.  I made up a font which is not really spectacular, but useful.  I can make it available.  It is at http://www.torcroft.com/Rests.ttf The 'AC' is the rest.

If you load the font, the example might explain itself.

Robin

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #30 –
Peter, re your explanation in reply 24, I get it now.  Thanks for your patience.

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #31 –
Robin, thank you for the explanation and showing me your font.  Looks useful.

Sam, I'd prefer to put the number above the rest line to make the appearance more conventional, but the Boxmark2 symbols are just so easy to use, typing only [7].  To go the other way would mean leaving a gap in the horizontal part of [ and ], and trying to line the numeral up properly too.  Your idea of using a dingbat white square is interesting.  I'll give it a try.

Kevin, your idea of leaving space for cue notes is nice.  I think we all have some desire to allow Peter's  "suppressed" feature idea, which you essentially are saying too.

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #32 –
David,

I hope the font is useful.  I would have done more, except I only had the software on a 30 day trial, and couldn't afford to buy it.  If you or anyone knows how I can get some font-making software at a reasonable price (or even free, of course) I'd be grateful for the information. I envisioned doing a font that would have many odds & ends useful in music typesetting.

Robin

Re: Multiple measures of rest

Reply #33 –
I haven't yet downloaded your font, I'm apparently at the limit my operating system allows.  I seem to have bumped Courier New off now.  I'm afraid to uninstall the existing ones for fear of what I might lose.