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Topic: embedded triplets (Read 4180 times) previous topic - next topic

embedded triplets

I am inputting a choral piece which has the vocal parts in 3/4 time and the piano in 9/8. I think this is probably just a publisher's trick to avoid having to print all those 3s in the piano staves, since 3/4 and 9/8 aren't strictly equivalent. So, having reconverted the left hand piano to 3/4 with 3 eighth note triplets per bar, my problem arises in the right hand piano where each bar contains 9 groups of 3 sixteenth notes (the third of each being a rest). This is where the problem lies. If I leave all staves in 3/4, the rh piano becomes a notational nightmare, essentially embedding triplets within triplets (not possible in NWC having spent 4 hours reading all 'triplet' threads in forum) Reconverting the vocal parts to 9/8 is a possible solution, having to dot and double dot everything, but this is really not a desirable alternative since, once the piece is posted, only the vocal parts will be visible and choir members would probably smell (hear?) a rat. Any ideas for notating the rh piano but leaving the piece in 3/4 time? Visually, the piano staves needn't show, so any mathematical formula is welcome. Double dotted sixty- fourths?
 

Re: embedded triplets

Reply #1 –
I don't remember whether NWC accepts 64th notes (I am at work with a Unix, and no NWC available). If it's the case, then write this for each series of 3 triplets, in the time of a quarter note:
  • a double-dotted 64th note
  • a double-dotted 64th note
  • a double-dotted 64th rest
  • a double-dotted 64th note
  • a double-dotted 64th note
  • a double-dotted 64th rest
  • a double-dotted 64th note
  • a double-dotted 64th note
  • a 32th rest
The overall duration is : 8 × (7/256) + 1 × (1/32) = 1/4.

I'm trying to find a better approximation using (not embedded) triplets.

Re: embedded triplets

Reply #2 –
Without 64th notes, here is a possibility. In each triplet, replace the two 16th notes and the 16th rest with two dotted 32th notes and one 32th rest, then tripletize groups of 9 notes/rests.

In case the third 16th is a note and not a rest, preferably choose the second note to be without a dot :
dotted 32th + normal 32th + dotted 32th
(three times this pattern, and tripletize the whole 9 notes)

Re: embedded triplets

Reply #3 –
Why would you want to change it? The composer most likely wrote what s/he wanted to hear. Three against two is a compositional device which can have great meaning and beauty in the right hands for composer, performer, and listener (Listener should include not only audience, but composer and performer.}

Re: embedded triplets

Reply #4 –
D justice, it was a good idea to resurrect the old https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=1133 (even if my command of english is too poor to understand what you wrote in there).

Then, here is another method:
  • Notate both vocal parts and piano part in 9/8, and hide them. This will be for the good sounding.
  • Notate the vocal parts a second time, in 3/4, and shut them down. The bar lines temporarily won't fit.
  • On the vocal parts, add a hidden 9/8 just after the 3/4.
  • On the vocal parts, after each 1/4th note add a hidden 1/8th rest; after each 1/8th note add a hidden 1/16th rest, and so on.
This should work (again, I can't try this now, but I will tonight if I have some time).

Re: embedded triplets

Reply #5 –
Thank you Olivier and Carl, I think answer 4 may turn out to be the most elegant solution. However, the vocal line does also contain triplets, naturally, and I wonder whether the triplet function will be able to capture and notate the sequence eighth note sixteenth rest x 3 or quarter note eighth rest eighth note sixteenth rest combination. I also will see if this works this morning. Incidentally, the composer of this piece, "The Pilgrim's Chorus" was Wagner and I haven't a clue whether this 3/4 vocal, 9/8 piano was his doing or not. Maybe somebody out there could offer some illumination on this.

Re: embedded triplets

Reply #6 –
It's probably Wagner's notation. I had the same problem recently arranging Bach's "Jesu Joy", where the fiddles are in 9/8 and the choir is in 3/4. I tried a bunch of options, including writing the choral parts with lots of unnecessary dots and the string parts all in triplets, and wound up doing it one way in the score and another way in the parts.
Oliver's elegant solution is the best one.

There's another situation which I've seen a few times in late Baroque music (a Telemann piece my quartet's working on now, for instance) where some parts are in 6/8 and some are in 3/4 - continuous written-in hemiolas (2 against 3).
Noteworthy handles this fine, beaming the different staves properly and lining up the bar lines.

Re: embedded triplets

Reply #7 –
Sounds to me as if Wagner wanted to give the poor pilgrims something to occupy their musical minds on their journey!!

There are some suggestions for the vocal part at http://www.amcofa.org/eauclaire/pilgrimschorus.html that may (or may not) be helpful.

Why tamper with the 9/8 in the piano?  The vocalists won't see that part, will they?

Something that works but probably isn't what you need, is to make the whole 9/8 bar one big triplet.  3 groups of 3 eighth notes all tripletized will give you the same bar length as one 3/4 bar.  It seems to work for different note and rest combinations.  If you have to tripletize anything in the vocal part, the beats and the measures will still line up between the vocal and piano staves.

Re: embedded triplets

Reply #8 –
Using the suggestions in reply #4 have completed input. Looks and sounds good. All visible notes and lyrics match. Hint - remember to adjust the tempo accordingly when fooling around with time signatures. Thanks to all again. Diolch yn fawr.