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Topic: Key signatures (Read 7966 times) previous topic - next topic

Key signatures

Since the major and minor key signatures are included in NWC, what about the Ionian, dorian, Frigian, Lidian, Mixolidian and Eolic key signatures and even some moduses from middle age and so on?
I saw these things in some older and more simple music notation programs like NWC.

Re: Key signatures

Reply #1 –
I don't profess to know what all these modes etc are (although I have heard of some of them). However I am taking a guess that the customised key signature facility in NWC may be able to give you any key signature you ever want. To use it press the key sig toolbar button, then instead of selecting a sig from the drop down list, use the radio buttons to select your desired set of sharps or flats.

Re: Key signatures

Reply #2 –
I believe the current common practise is to use the key signature of the ionian root. For example, for C dorian you'd use the key signature of B-flat (two flats). It will generally be quite obvious from the chord structure and melodic form that the piece is in dorian.

Or, as Joy suggests, you can assign any key signature you like (you can even mix sharps and flats) -- but don't be surprised at puzzled looks if you give the resulting score to performing musicians. ;-)

Re: Key signatures

Reply #3 –
The Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, and Locrian mode "signatures" may be derived from the key signatures which alreday are present in NWC.  (In fact, the minor key signatures are not even necessary, as they are duplicates of the major signatures.)  Also, as Fred suggests, the common practice is to use the key signature of what would be, for all intents and purposes, the Ionian root.
C Ionian = 0 sharps/flats
C Dorian = 2 flats  (Bb Eb)
C Phrygian = 4 flats (Bb Eb Ab Db)
C Lydian = 1 sharp  (F#)
C Mixolydian = 1 flat (Bb)
C Aeolian = 3 flats  (Bb Eb Ab)
C Locrian = 5 flats  (Bb Eb Ab Db Gb)
If you can't see the pattern, or can't transpose these to other "keys," I know quite a few more ways to explain it.

Re: Key signatures

Reply #4 –
Another way of looking at it is that for every key signature there are seven diatonic modes, using each note as the tonic. Calling the major or Ionian scale 1, you have 2 Dorian, 3 Phrygian, 4 Lydian, 5 Mixolydian, 6 Aeolian, 7 Locrain.

So with no sharps or flats, if you use C as the tonic you're in the Ionian or "major key" mode; if D is the tonic you're in the lovely Dorian mode (an alternate flavour of minor); if E the Spanish-sounding Phrygian, if F the bright Lydian, with the tritone fourth; if G the Mixolydian, sometimes called "blues major"; if A the Aeolian mode, sometimes called the "natural minor"; if B is the tonic you have the rarely used Locrian.

And so on. If you use a one-sharp signature you have the Ionian on G, Dorian on A, Phrygian on B, Lydian on C, Mixolydian on D, Aeolian on E, and Locrian on F#.

Re: Key signatures

Reply #5 –
Quick! What's the key signature of F# Phrygian? Here's how I work it out; Phrygian is the third mode. OK, what major key has F# as the third note? That would be D, so F# Phrygian has two sharps.

Another example: What's the key signature of Ab Lydian? Lydian is the fourth mode, so what major key has Ab as the fourth note? Answer: Eb, so the key signature would have three flats.

Here's a mnemonic you can use to remember the modes:
"I Don't Play Loud Music After Lunch"

Re: Key signatures

Reply #6 –
 
So, do you have a mnemonic not to confuse loud with lunch...I mean Lydian with Locrian?

:-‡þ)

Ertugrul

---
ertugrulinanc-at-ixir-dot-com
 

Re: Key signatures

Reply #7 –
Remember the old days when we would have to tell the telephone operator "KLondike5-0199" (or "Pennsylvania6-5000")?  Well, I was shown yet another way by a friend from Utah(?).  He called it the "modal phone number."  It is LIMDAP 4762.  [This method, however, does not include the Locrian, maybe because it's the "Devil's Mode."]

#|||b||#||||b
LIMDAP
4|||7||6||||2

The LIM are the "majorish" modes, two of them having one simple alteration each:  Lydian is like Major with a #4, Ionian is just like Major, and Mixolydian is like Major with a b7.  The other half is the Minor side:  Dorian is like Minor with a #6, Aeolian is just like Minor, and Phrygian is like Minor with a b2.  My wife (then fiancée) could never learn it as described by Alfred J or John Kavanagh, but finds this way much easier.  I think that with Fred's mnemonic sentence, she finally might be able to remember the order.  Let's find out...
[Note: ignore all of the ||||| in the diagram.  These were the only way I could get it to align properly in the preview.  The preview ignores spaces!  I hope it looks right after I submit...]

Re: Key signatures

Reply #8 –
 
Try non-breaking space, aka   or Alt + 0160:
 
#   b  #   b
LIMDAP
4  7  6   2

FWIW,
Ertugrul

---
Email to:
ertugrulinanc-at-ixir-dot-com
 

Re: Key signatures

Reply #9 –
I tried the Alt+0160, but it behaved just like a regular space.  How'd you do it?

Re: Key signatures

Reply #10 –
Yes, Ertugrul, there's another one that does distinguish:

"I Don't Play Like My Aunt Lucretia".

The word "Lucretia" even suggests "Locrian." -- I didn't mention it because I always get my aunt Lucretia confused with my aunt Lydia. :-P

Re: Key signatures

Reply #11 –
So what we call "mode de Ré"(D) in gregorian chant is Dorian mode?

Ron: try to alternate normal space (Alt+32)          and nbspace (Alt+0160).
Note that the space(s) (Alt+32) at the beginning of the line are removed.
And as the font is not a fixed-with one, the results are impredictible (try to align I and M letters... at various visual size (Display/Font size)!!!)

I'd wish to have the <TT> equivalent :|

Re: Key signatures

Reply #12 –
Not that anyone asked, but the reason no-one uses the Locrain mode is because it's so ugly-sounding. Ick.  It's not a "real" mode anyway. Unsanctified by church or folk or Plato, it was given a contrived Greek name by completist pedants in the twentieth century. I don't really know this for a fact; I'm guessing :-)

Re: Key signatures

Reply #14 –
>>...the reason no-one uses the Locrian mode is because it's so ugly-sounding.
Well, that's one opinion.  And, while it may be "Unsanctified by church or folk or Plato," try listening to some heavy metal.
(Hmmmm, maybe that's why they use it...)
 

Re: Key signatures

Reply #15 –
Back to the way key signatures are entered within NWC...

When I want to enter a score with NWC, and I see, e.g., 5 sharps, here are the brain contortions that I must do:
  • remember the order of the sharps (in french: fa do sol ré la)
  • remember the rule (fa# + 1/2 tone = si majeur or sol mineur)
  • translate into english (si majeur = B major)
  • find corresponding line within list
... and this is when I don't do mistakes (maybe I've done some in my example?)

If I want to use the other method, this is not much simpler:
  • 5 sharps = fa do sol ré la
  • fa = F - click!
  • do = C - click!
  • sol = G - click!
  • ré = D - click!
  • la = A - click!
Then... could we have another possible choice which would be "count = 5" "kind = sharps" ? Maybe I should add it to the wish list?

Re: Key signatures

Reply #16 –
What a brilliant suggestion! And so elegant and simple. Another pet dislike of mine is the way that the 'flat' major keys appear quite a way down the list, past some obscure sharp keys meaning you have to scroll down to select a common key like F maj. To make the current method more user frindly, I would prefer to see keys listed with the most common ones (meaning least accidentals) at the top.

Re: Key signatures

Reply #17 –
You don't have to scroll down to select F maj.  Just press the F key twice.  It's faster, no mouse, no mess.

Re: Key signatures

Reply #18 –
Of course. How could I be so dumb! I use exactly the same technique for selecting instruments from the (much longer) drop down list, so why did it not occur to me to try it here? Thanks for making my life easier.

Re: Key signatures

Reply #19 –
Glad to be of service.
(I think I'm returning your favor, though.  I seem to remember being helped by one of you comments in the past, though I do not feel like searching through all of the threads right now...)