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Writing symphonys without nwc

WHEN WRITING A SYMPHONY HOW ON EARTH ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO
KNOW WHAT IT SOUNDS LIKE.

IF YOU JOT DOWN NOTES ONTO A SYMPHONY SCORE AND THEN GET IT
PLAYED IT MAY SOUND TERRIBLE.

HELP ME !

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #1 –
That's part of why people just don't write them in their spare time... it's not just a walk in the park lol. Have you seen the entire scores for symphonies? They are like as thick as a normal paperback...
But nwc would help in grasping how it would sound. But you said w/o nwc didn't you...
oh well :P

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #2 –
Experience, training, imagination, and *experience.* Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Mahler and all those other guys didn't have NWC. And it had to be pretty close when going into rehearsal -- with maybe only a few changes here and there before going to premiere.

Just as you have to be able to "see" a proposed painting in your "mind's eye," you have to be able to "hear" your symphony (or other work) in your "mind's ear." That being said, I doubt that many symphonic composers (with the possible exceptions of Haydn and Mozart, but they're not around any more to ask) "hear" the fully orchestrated finished production; most probably start with a sketch (e.g. in the strings) then fill in the rest, just as most painters start with a sketch then fill in first the broad details, then the progressively finer ones.

Fred

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #3 –
It’s kind of like Fred says — Experience, training, imagination, and *experience.*
When you read a book/newspaper/magazine/email, do you hear the words in your head? Well, when I read a score, I hear the notes in my head. I do actually hear the fully-orchestrated finished product in my “mind’s ear.” What NWC has done for me is allow me to hear accidentals that I’ve omitted, incorrectly-marked dynamics, and a few other things that have marred those “first rehearsals.”
Most composers don’t just “jot down notes.” They hear the music in their minds first, then figure out what it is they are hearing, and then write it down.
If you are not up to spending the ×&$ for the training and experience, then all you are left with in Fred’s equation is imagination (which IS an essential tool). From there, you’ll need a bit of luck, or better yet a mentor of some sort.
Hab Mut!

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #4 –
One of my favorite Symphonies is Beethoven's 9th, and he was deaf when he wrote that. I don't remember if Ries still checked his scores for errors at that time...

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #5 –
That reminds me... I can sing well enough, but could not write down the notes for a song that I know well. I do not have the skill needed to transfer the sound of my own voice into musical notation. It is not that I can't read notation! The only way for me to do it would be to slowly sing it, note-by-note on a step basis, and find the pitch by tapping piano keys.

I remain astonished by composers who can write music from their heads, involving numerous instruments, some of which they could not play.

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #6 –
>>>I remain astonished by composers who can write music from their heads, involving numerous instruments, some of which they could not play.
I myself can play only one instrument at the level at which I compose. Strings? If it’s not “Twinkle Variations,” forget it! Woodwinds? Too many buttons.
In my head, I can play anything — no need to know any fingerings (except in special circumstances). The performers are the ones who need to know. All the composer needs to know is whether his/her intentions are possible on a particular instrument.

Who is Ries?

To Reply 7:
Yes, many instruments do transpose, but the need to do so depends on which instruments are in question.
Music intended for the ’cello does not need to be transposed to be played on a trombone, violin/flute works without transposition, as do clarinet/trumpet, english horn/french horn, and a few others.
Someone here can point you to the file that has all of the transpositions nicely laid out for you.

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #7 –
Well, I dunno if Ries checked it, but it's a bit high for the bass part :)
Keeping high E with wholes tied is a bit hard for usual basses, and if Beethoven had heard it, maybe he would have changed some things ;)
...unless he wanted that specific sound

However, I have to join the global opinion.
Writing a symphony —–as well as for any other polyphonic, or even monophonic work–— needs training and experience.
A spanish proverb says that "experience is something you acquire just after having needed it". So take courage, and do not hesitate to work twice ;)
Fred: I'd add JSBach to your Haydn+Mozart list :) IMHO of course...

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #8 –
And Schubert? He certainly never heard his 9th (Great C Major) performed, and, given no. 8's unfinished status, I doubt if he ever heard that either. But both are sublime works.

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #9 –
I heard that when playing music intended for a specific
instrument on a different one, it must first be transposed

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #10 –
marsu - Yes, Bach certainly had "big ears." I didn't mention him in this context though because I don't really see him as a symphonic composer. I may be mistaken, but I see Haydn as the "inventor", if you will, of the symphonic form.

Peter - I agree. To my knowledge Schubert never heard /any/ of his symphonies performed, except as noodling around with friends at Schubertiads. (And like you, I love the 9th. The length and repetitiveness for which it is sometimes criticised is precisely one of its strongest features. I say to the critics, "But Schubert invented Trance music!) ;-)

Fred

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #11 –
About the reply #5: Beethoven went deaf when the pitch was still at A=424, the Symphonie was performed at A=456, today we use A=440-442, that means today the E (and F, sang this piece about a month ago as a baritone) sounds almost a semitone above it would sound in his mind (wich is still in the range). Imagine the pain it was for the Sopranos to sing in the Credo (some parts of the Missa Solemnis were also premiered that day) in wich they have to sing a lot of sforzatos in a high B flat (a-men(sf), a-men(sf)).

====================================
I also compose symphonies and concertos and sonatas and chamber pieces and others and I have always known what they will sound. I compose at ink first then I edit it to the nwc, so that others may listen and understand my terrible handwritten font.
If you want to hear my 1st symphonie (I'm almost finishing my second, for 2 flutes, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets, 2 bassoons, 4 horns, 2 trumpets, 3 trombones, timpani, triangle, piatti(?) , gran cassa (?) and strings -coming out greatly)

:-)

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #12 –
about "hearing" instruments: yes, I find more easy to hear in my mind a string quarter than playing any of these instruments (though I tried to learn violin this year with my 5yo son)
However, I know that as a composer (I include here arranger) you *need* to know what can be done on each instrument, and what can't. It's not enough to know the range of it; you also have to know how many notes can be played at the same time, which can't be played together, whichi trills are almost impossible, which (quick) intervals are really difficult, and so on.
Briefly, each instrument's limits :)
I've been told that Berlioz had written a good book on this matter. It may be found in the "Piston" book too? On that matter, I'm bookless –especially in english :|
I know there has been already discussions and indications on these books, maybe on the NG? I know some useful links, but in french only. sorry :-(

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #14 –
As an oboist who has spent many uncomfortable minutes in long, involved passages written entirely above the staff, I would have to insist that just knowing the range of the instrument is not enough. Yes, I CAN play the G an octave above the staff; that does not mean it's advisable to have me play fifteen of them in the space of eight bars.

I found the Rimsky-Korsakov book (yes, its the same guy) has pretty good explanations for the quality and usefulness of each instrument in various parts of their ranges, if you can find a copy of it. Some of the information is a bit dated, but it is a generally useful text, for this and several other subjects.

Eric Fretheim

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #15 –
The oboist's comments apply to vocal parts, as well. This is especially true when less-than-operatic quality singers are used.

Yes, as an adult male, I CAN sing F (often shown as one octave down from the top line of the treble staff). And I CAN sing F (shown as the space below the lowest line on the bass clef). But I cannot enunciate multisyllablic words there, and I cannot maintain accurate pitch over extended passages in which notes differ by a semitone.

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #16 –
Yes, Robert, but what most voices are capable of singing, and what some composers expect singers to be capable of are often two different things ;)
The voice, though, is the one instrument that can vary greatly in range from one performer to another. Also, I suspect that male voices are lower in general nowadays than they were 100 or 200 years ago. Certainly, there aren't too many castrati around these days (as a baritone with pretentions to being a tenor, there are limits to what I will go through to get that little bit higher!) ;)

Robin

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #17 –
There are also ethnic differences, apparently. Our choir bass section often has trouble with hymns translated from Russian. Apparently, (at least as far as their composers are concerned) Russian basses really are deep. But this does not seem to be true for the Germans. Among contemporary English-language hymnasts, some of the deepest (and most difficult) bass parts are written by women. Makes you think!

Some time ago, I was visiting elsewhere, and sang in the local choir. There were only two homegrown basses, not counting one who sang solos (outside the choir). The stereo effect was quite strange: The bass on one side (Mr. Rumble) could not sing the upper range; the bass on the other side (Mr. Squeak) could not sing the lower range. As for me, I can squawk the entire compass.

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #18 –
Lest we not forget trombone “glissandos” that are impossible to execute. NEVER write one more than a tri-tone, and even these are limited. And how many times have I been expected to play E-flat to A-flat…
The Rimsky-Korsakov, the Berlioz, and the Piston are all good, and I also have one by Alfred Blatter that is quite good, too.
As for range, make sure you know the COMFORTABLE range, not just the POSSIBLE range. And think about tessitura…

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #19 –
ahh yes the castrati hahaha... it's a good thing women are allowed to perform on stage nowadays... I think I'll be a bass soon... my voice is still dropping, my current range is the E below the bass staff to the E on the first line of the treble staff. About to months ago it was G to G... and I thought my voice was already done changing.

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #20 –
.....and I'm 16, and basses reach their full range at 30 usually, forgot to put that in... what do you people do musically as far as playing or singing? I sing, play classical guitar, bass, piano, used to play violin, I play drums for fun, mandolin... I can do a lot of stringed stuff since some are pretty similar.

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #21 –
Everett,
As you may already be realizing, you may not be done yet, at 16. My voice continue to slowly sag until I finally stabilized somewhere around 20ish, at D below the bass staff to (barely) middle C. Just low enough that typical amateur "baritone" (at least church choir music) lines go just out of my range at the top.
Eric Fretheim

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #22 –
Yeah, that is a real bass range though, the operatic range of a cantante bass is the low F(F2) on the staff to the F4 octaves above, the profundo bass is the Db2 to D4, the contrabass is Bb1-G3. My uncle who is an opera singer has a friend opera singer who can hit G1(an octave below the lowest line on the bass staff), and he can do it LOUD.
Ev

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #23 –
This discussion does seem to have drifted somewhat from the original question, and for what it's worth I add my tuppence, which is in substance no different to Nachbaur's - if you can't hear it (in your head), don't write it - that is not to say that hearing comes easily, any more than playing an instrument comes easily, it has to be worked at, so I entirely agree with Nachbaur, it is experience, training, imagination, practice and oh and experience, traini......

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #24 –
will I learn this is my music lessons (Grade 1 - 8)

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #25 –
You probably won't learn it *formally* in music lessons, but you'll learn music notation, basic music theory, ear training, sight reading, familiarity with your instrument(s), rhythmic sense, and discipline. - all of which are necessary for composition and arrangement. Think of it as "ground school". You'd never expect to learn to fly a fighter jet by simply walking into the cockpit and taking off.

In other words, your music lessons will give you a lot of those important elements "experience" and "training", while encouraging the "imagination" by showing what others have done.

One more thing -- keep listening. And keep an open mind.

Fred

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #26 –
When Beethoven wrote some of his symphonies he was deaf.
It may be almost as if his brain went to plan B and he could hear it all in is head

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #27 –
Sorry, coming back on reply 22:
Interesting ranges you gave here, Everett. Do you know where we can find the others?
And aside of this, being able to sing (not only making a sound of that height, I mean) from Bb1 to F4, without falsetto voice which gets naturally higher, what is called this tessiture?
Note: you got some chance to have your voice dropping slowly. It happened to me much more quicker when I was 16 (iirc), and I "fell" from the contra-soprano range to the bass range. Really surprising; my parents themselves were looking for who had talked :)
However, during some months at this period, I still could sing soprano too. My bass range was not so deep (only F2), but I could have sing a quartet alone ;)

About voice range maturity: if you sing regularly, then it may be established around 30 y.o.; if you don't, it may be some years later, but probably not so wide. Here also is a matter of experience, training, imagination, practice...
Only one thing: never "force" your voice. Singing is not a sport, rather a relaxation exercise... (though you *may* be exhausted at the end of a concert. If you're not, then you didn't gave all you could ;)

Enjoy your new field of singing experience. If you sing lower enough and at the right frequence, you may see the TV or computers screens tremble as if there was an earthquake. It happens when you're near the refresh frequency of it (or at the upper octave, but it's less visible), so sing as a cello glissando... to sing all the frequencies ;)
(explanation I give of this phenomenon: the head skull vibrates at the same frequency than the note you're singing, so do your eyes; and so do the picture you see. If it's near the refresh rate of the screen, then some kind of interferences/artefacts appear... Your opinion, Fred?)

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #28 –
Yes, I've noticed this, also!
When playing my horn while watching the music scroll by on the screen, I've seen everything shake as well!
Oh! And try loudly crunching Doritos® while watching TV!

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #29 –
ROTFL
Should I conclude that one can't play contrabass while reading the score playing on NWC?

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #30 –
If you play your contrabass with your head touching the scroll, the screen goes NUTS!
Don’t forget to experiment with two strings simultaneously!

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #31 –
:-) 2 strings simultaneously will create a low interference new frequency...
As I don't have a contrabass at home, playing 2 strings (on a guitar) slightly disacorded , i.e. with low interferences, may lead to the same results? But you have to hold the guitar (I suggest the highest end of it) against your head, or to put it on the top of your head (if my wife sees me doing so, she'll surely wonder about my nerves' state)

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #32 –
My wife has stopped wondering about me LONG ago! ; )
The two simultaneous pitches create combination tones/resultant tones depending upon the pitches.  Choosing consonant (but non-perfect) intervals creates a pattern of interference frequencies that I can’t describe with words…

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #33 –
Well, I guess mathematics (trigonometrical equations) would be better to describe this ;)

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #34 –
for reply 2 - I can hear what I want for a piece but I
can't work out where they go on the stave.
To me it's like trying to open a recording on nw player!

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #35 –
Perry:

When our choir Bass section sings dissonant tones, the fellow next to me has no problem describing the effect with words. But I can't put them here.

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #37 –
I'm not aiming to write a symphony, or even to even try writing my first overture. I'm still learning the basics of harmonic theory and what not. Does anyone have any advice to a would-be composer? I'll be a junior in high school next year.  I grew up listening to a combination of Yes, Ambrosia, Styx and Kansas coupled with Holst, Bach, Copeland and Mozart (who I can't stand.) I think my ears are on backwards.

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #38 –
Yes. Create music, starting off with simple things, and put them in the newsgroup. Listen to comments, and improve.
There is one drawback, if you haven't bought NWC, you will have to do so. The newsgroup only accepts those who have bought NWC. But for 39 dollars, it's a steal - with many benefits. (I do _not_ have a stake in the company; I just like the product, and use it very often.)

And I think that reply nr. 2 is still very useful.

Re: Writing symphonys without nwc

Reply #39 –
I was wondering the other day why there hasn't been an increase in the productivity of composers since MIDI came in.. I guess pop and rock music are popular now and there has been an increase in productivity with that.

Beethoven said that he could hear all the instruments in his head - he just wrote down what he heard.