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antitonic?

Does anyone know what degree is the antitonic?

thanks

David

Re: antitonic?

Reply #1 –
A couple resources for you:

Music Theory Online

David Lehmann's paper on "Deductive nonmonotonic inference operations: antitonic representations" (PostScript format).

As near as I can gather, it's another way of looking at the dominant (fifth degree) since its tonic, third and seventh (e.g. F, G, B) can resolve in different directions.

Yeah, ok.

Fred

Re: antitonic?

Reply #2 –
Never heard of it.
Looked in every music dictionary I have.
Where have you heard of it? And in what context?
(If I had to guess, I’d say the raised fourth/lowered fifth.)

Re: antitonic?

Reply #3 –
I heard of it in a text about Beethoven. There it said that his modulations to the antitonic were important for the tonal expansion that came after him. As he used to create modulations to everywhere, to find out what degree is the antitonic is not that easy!

Re: antitonic?

Reply #4 –
I've search for "antitonique" (in french) but didn't find anything.
However, antitonal (in english as well) gives more results, in ancient music as in modern (Prelude a l'apres-midi d'un Faune).
Maybe you could ask your question in to a composition newsgroup, such as RMC (rec.music.compose, if I remind well)? Currently no one ever talked of it yet.

HTH!

Re: antitonic?

Reply #5 –
Here are the scale degree names I learned in school:

1. tonic
2. supertonic
3. mediant
4. subdominant
5. dominant
6. submediant
7. subtonic (leading tone)

Not an "antitonic" in the bunch. But I like Anne's guess that it may mean the note a tritone away from the tonic (F# in C major, for example). In traditional harmonic theory this note is considered the most distant possible from the tonic. Now I'm racking my brain for prominent examples of this modulation in Beethoven. I can't think of any offhand, but that doesn't mean they're not there. OTOH Schumann was quite fond of distant key relationships, this one included.

Re: antitonic?

Reply #6 –
Re: Beethoven tritone modulation

I'm almost 100% certain there is at least one example, I believe it's in a piano work but I couldn't say which one. I do remember studying it in theory - I'm on spring break so all of my theory textbooks are at school, I'll look again and post back next week
-j

Re: antitonic?

Reply #7 –
Grant, I'm not sure of the english names, in particular I wonder about the 6th degree. Here below what I think is correct (in parentheses the french names)
1. tonic (tonique)
2. supertonic (sus-tonique)
3. mediant (médiante)
4. subdominant (sous-dominante)
5. dominant (dominante)
6. ???? (sus-dominante ou enharmonique)
7. subtonic (leading tone) (sous-tonique, also called "note sensible" when a semitone lower the tonique)

About tritone: F# is exactly in the middle of the octave C-C, as well as C is the middle of F#-F#; I've been told that Debussy was the first "classic" composer to use this interval (or rather chord) in his compositions (it's often used in jazz). He also used a lot the interval (or chord) 4th-7th degree, which is a tritone (also named the diabolic fourth, IIRC) in a classic scale (major, or minor "melodic" asc.).
But I wouldn't be surprised Beethoven has used it for modulation. What I particularly love with this author, is that you rarely guess what is the next note after having heard the previous ones. Not always of course, but much more than many others, IMHO of course (considering the composers before him or next to him. So John Cage excluded, for example).
So if there is a note to be named antitonic, I wouldn't be surprised to be that one :)

Re: antitonic?

Reply #8 –
I was puzzled by the 4. and 6. names in english, and knowing Grant rarely gives wrong indications, I searched a bit further.
Sorry, Grant is perfectly right (how could I doubt about it, BTW??)
For the people interested in knowing *why* this naming is used, the following page : http://www.teoria.com/questions/questions/29-IX-97r.htm may be of some help. At least it has helped me :)

Again, all my humble apologies :-(