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Topic: Chord on caverns (Read 7757 times) previous topic - next topic

Chord on caverns

I was looking at caverns and looking at the chords as it has a gr8 chord pattern in there when i noticed that there is a chord marked Dº. What chord is this? (as i dont read chords in letters but have managed to work out the rest)

Re: Chord on caverns

Reply #1 –
That "degree" symbol is used to indicate "diminished." The D diminished triad is D, F, Ab and the "full diminished" (double-flat 7) version is D, F, Ab, Cb (or, if you prefer, D, F, Ab, B).

Fred

Re: Chord on caverns

Reply #2 –
While we're one chord structure , the other day I was looking at augmented chords and realized(something that many before me have probably realized) that the major augmented triad has in essence no fundamental bass note, like in the chord C E G#, the chord is a C aug, an E aug, and a G# aug, so each note in the chord, in a way, is bass note of it, instead of their being inversions, since the notes are all exactly 5 semitones apart, it makes a repeating pattern. So in a way there are only 4 augmented triad patterns, each augmented chord(in the major key) like C,D,Eb,E,F,F# being just an arbitrary inversion of one of these 4 augmented triads.

Re: Chord on caverns

Reply #3 –
The same is true of full diminished chords. There's really only three of them, if you look at it from an inversions standpoint.

That being said, there normally will indeed be a root or tonic in any given situation.

Re: Chord on caverns

Reply #4 –
This is obvious on the Guitar, since the fingering for the chords is identical for each group. Mind you, it's been a few years since I played the guitar!

Robin

Re: Chord on caverns

Reply #5 –
The symmetry of augmented/diminished chords has been around for a long time, it's one of the fundamentals of chromatic modulation in the tonal system. I remember looking at an augmented chord and realizing it was other chords in different inversions long before theory class taught me how to put them into practical use, but I didn't think much about it at the time. Congrats on making a discovery without reading it out of a textbook or hearing it from a professor for the final exam!
:)
-j

Re: Chord on caverns

Reply #6 –
Yeah, I had noticed that about the full diminished chords too... like towards the end of the Toccata in Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor. I was messing around with that part on the piano and noticed the pattern too. I can't find many good books on theory at my library, and all the websites are annoying, I'm just too used to book format for practical musical use, my piano is in the other room, so it'd be a pain coming back and forth between the comp... blah.
Ev

Re: Chord on caverns

Reply #7 –
not quite off topic
I played this thing on guitar the other day with a strange scale.
A, C, C#, E, F, G#, A
I realized it has 2 interval arrangements each with 3 possible starting points, but what I played started on A.

I discussed it with a freind who is studying music and he didnt know it, but we came up with the name "Atlantean Scale" because it had a water "feel" to it.
Is there a proper name for it? (not that I don't like the name we used :)
Or does anyone know of pieces that use it?

Re: Chord on caverns

Reply #8 –
Hmmm... interesting, I haven't heard it before in any peices to my memory, but there is SO much music out there, I wouldn't be suprised if there was a peice that used it.
Ev

Re: Chord on caverns

Reply #9 –
There's a part in the 1st piano concerto from Beethoven that might interest you. It's the ending of a solo from wich will outcome a new orchestral tutti with the theme. The piano plays (middle C being C3)
F#3-A3-C4-Eb4-F#4-A4-C5-EB5 (beggining on first tempo - a half and two fourths) and then ends at the beggining of the next measure the whole chord one semitone below. Then, while the horns alone replies at the next measure only with Gs, same pattern, the piano does this for some time, you can realize that this chord is the most used for modulation in the entire history of classical music.
There's another version of this chord that also interests me: (check out the modulation)
1.Bass C on one hand, C major chord on the other;
2.Bass A on one hand, C-Eb-F#-A-C
3.Bass Ab, Ab-C-Eb-F#
4.Bass G, G-C-Eb-G
5.Bass G, G major
6.Lower bass C, lower C minor.

Now, pay attention to the augmented german 6th (3.) this chord is also known as V7 to fall into Db, this amazing chord can be used (and was used plenty by Schubert, Beethoven and Haydn, but it must be on this inversion) to fall into Db, C minor and G minor.
Spooky huh?

Do you know how I learned this? Studying the old masters' pieces. Really helped me.

Re: Chord on caverns

Reply #10 –
When you start your scale on C, you have a majority of the key notes in the Hungarian minor scale (I'm pretty sure, might be one of the variations, I'll have to look again if it's wrong).
-j

Re: Chord on caverns

Reply #11 –
to Reply 7:
It’s not the Hungarian minor scale,
or any of the variations, as Reply 9 suggests.
I’ve never seen a name associated with this “scale.”
In atonal theory, it’s referred to as
a symmetrical set-type, and may be labeled
[0, 3, 4, 7, 8, 11] or [0, 1, 4, 5, 8, 9],
depending on where it starts.
As for a name, I do like “Atlantean Scale,”
but for the “mystery” feel to it (not the “water” feel).

Re: Chord on caverns

Reply #12 –
hmm, similar nickname.
anyway ive been thinking about this. the way I play it, it may actually be two 3-note scales (that possible?) based on 2 augmented chords
A, C#, F
E, G#, C
since it also starts on E... which i should have mentioned before.

Re: Chord on caverns

Reply #13 –
It's not a "scale" if it's based solely on the notes of an augmented triad. I would either call it a synthetic scale or just two superimposed augmented triads.
-j

Re: Chord on caverns

Reply #14 –
The wholetone scale fits perfectly with the augmented triad.

Re: Chord on caverns

Reply #15 –
mmmm...whole tone scale =)
True, it does fit with an aug. triad but there's two used to make the scale - the notes that he is using do not fit under the whole-tone system. I should have been more clear in my earlier response. :X
-j

Re: Chord on caverns

Reply #16 –
Cheers. (sorry for the lateness of the reply, my internet has not been working for a long time).