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time signature questions

Hi, I'm having an argument with someone about time sigs,
He says you can have any number in the bottom part of a t.s. eg 2/3 time, 7/10 time
I say only 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, etc can be on the bottom part.
I know alot of you here are experts in music so I thought this would be the best place (that I know of) to ask.
What does everyone say about this, or know for a fact?

Here it is just, incase you want to see it.
the main arguments between Malikye & Bluey

Re: time signature questions

Reply #1 –
uh sorry, bad link. try this one.

Re: time signature questions

Reply #2 –
Time signatures with the "denominator" in anything other than powers of 2 don't really make sense, since our musical notation system is based on time subdivisions by two. The lower number specifies what kind of note gets the beat, so if you want a 6/5 time signature you'd first have to invent a "1/5 note".

That being said, some composers (notably Percy Grainger) have experimented with such sigs. However, unless you want your scores intentionally hard to read, or want people to think you're some kind of revolutionary, there's not much point to it. The same result can be achieved using standard notation, perhaps employing dotted or double-dotted notes, tempo changes, multiplets, and similar constructs.

Regards,
Fred

Re: time signature questions

Reply #3 –
The lower number of a time sigature is always a power of 2 (1, 2, 4, 8 . . . ), corresponding to one of the standard note durations in the U.S./German naming system (whole, half, quarter, eighth . . .).

It is not strictly true that this number indicates the note that "gets the beat", although this is often the case. Instead this number always indicates how many notes of the given duration will fit into a measure. For example, 6/8 time does not say that an eighth-note gets the beat, but is instead the conventional way of indicating that there are two beats in the measure and each beat consists of three eighth notes. In this example (one kind of "compound meter"), the beat is actually carried by the dotted quarter note. Likewise 9/4 time means there are 9 quarters in the measure, divided in 3 groups of 3, and the dotted half note gets the beat.

Malikye's example of 3/3 time reflects a misunderstanding. If we were to take this signature literally we would have to find a note duration such that 3 fit into a whole note. This does not exist in the basic set (whole, half, quarter, eighth . . .) - there is no such thing as a "third note". You can construct a note of this duration by writing three half notes and putting a 3 (triplet sign) over them. This means taking 3 half notes in the time of two, and one of these tripletized half notes in isolation would be exactly 1/3 of a whole note. However, even if altered note durations could be used in a time signature - which they can't - 3/3 would merely mean "3 beats per measure, and the tripletized half note gets the beat", which is really the same as writing 3/2 measures without the triplet markings. It certainly would not mean what Malikye thinks it would mean (a meter of three beats per measure where the dotted quarter gets the beat, which is simply 9/8).

Since about 1900 composers have also made use of compound signatures, in which the top number is expressed as the sum of several numbers. For example (3+2+3)/8 would mean that there are 8 8th-notes in the measure, but instead of being grouped in pairs as usual, they're in uneven groups of 3, 2 and 3. You can also think of this as meaning there are 3 beats in the measure but the beats themselves vary in length. Note, though, that the bottom number in this type of signature is still just one of the standard powers of 2.

In more modern scores, some composers replace the lower number with an actual note representation. 4/4 would then be notated as 4 over a quarter note, and so on. In this scheme it's much easier to notate compound meters in a way that explicitly indicates what note gets the beat. 6/8, for example, would turn into 2 over a dotted quarter, eliminating any suggestion that eighths and not dotted quarters actually get the beat in this meter. (This is equivalent to what Malikye thinks 3/3 means, but it's only doable if you can put actual notes into your time signature. This same thing can't be done with just numbers.)

I hope this helps.

Re: time signature questions

Reply #4 –
In quantum notation, there is a more than equal liklihood that 7/10 time may or may not exist, but only in a theoretical reality. This has never been observed.
- Max 'Amadeus' Planck

Re: time signature questions

Reply #5 –
Also, on a technical side, MIDI allows only powers of 2 (1, 2, 4, ...) in the denominator.