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Topic: Alto Notation Help (Read 14071 times) previous topic - next topic

Alto Notation Help

It's been years since I sang in a chorale, and I was a soprano. Now I'm writing some choral music, and I am not sure the best way to write the alto parts. Can anyone tell me if it's more common to see many notes below the staff, or to see notes on the staff with an octave shift?

Re: Alto Notation Help

Reply #1 –
The alto range sits quite nicely on or near the treble clef and in modern music that is the clef that is invariably used.

A few ledger lines are quite acceptable (you'd only need two in normal music, although I have seen, but possibly not heard ;<), altos singing the F below middle C - that's getting a bit low!)

Nowadays the only octave shift in use is that for tenors on the treble clef, sinc a lot of their range is above the bass clef.

HTH
Peter

Re: Alto Notation Help

Reply #2 –
I sing with a SATB choir, and have never seen the Alto part with an octave shift. It seems that Peter's advice is right on the mark. As for tenors, sometimes they get a treble clef with an octave shift, sometimes the Bass clef with ledger lines.

Re: Alto Notation Help

Reply #3 –
>>sometimes they get a treble clef with an octave shift, sometimes the Bass clef with ledger lines.

In my experience this depends entirely on whether the tenors get their own staff or not. It's only when they share a staff with the basses that bass clef is used.

Re: Alto Notation Help

Reply #4 –
Oops, poor choice of musical language! A-flat is not the bottom line of the Bass clef: that's G. What I meant was that many run-of-the-mill amateur Basses (such as myself) cannot convincingly reach that bottom line (G). By "convincingly" I mean in a manner that reassures the listener that the singer could go lower routinely.

Re: Alto Notation Help

Reply #5 –
Agreed. I usually find two kinds of scores for SATB choirs:

First kind :
- Treble Clef for Sopranos
- Treble Clef for Altos (with ledger lines)
- Treble Clef with octave shift down for Tenors
- Bass Clef for Basses
Note that too many times, the octave shift down for
Tenors is forgotten, but everybody knows that it is
implied.

Second kind:
- Treble Clef for Sopranos and Altos
- Bass Clef for Tenors and Basses

Among these two kinds, the first one is always preferred
by the singers (although the second one saves paper).

Re: Alto Notation Help

Reply #6 –
Interestingly the second method is universally used in hymn books. The saving of space is obviously an advantage whenyou have 600 and more hymns to print, but an added advantage is the fact that you can play them! Reading off four staves is way beyond me: and quite a few others it would seem, since you often see a piano equivalent score underneath, marked 'for rehearsal only'.

Re: Alto Notation Help

Reply #7 –
There's an other clefs group:
Soprano: C clef in the 1st line
Alto: C clef on 3rd line
Tenor: C clef on 4th line
Bass: F clef
Nwc has the C clef for tenor and alto, but not for Sopranos

Re: Alto Notation Help

Reply #8 –
Let me be more specific and see if everyone still agrees. I am writing music for a women's choir. There are two soprano parts and two alto parts. As someone mentioned, most of the alto parts are within the staff. However, there is a small section in which one of the alto parts goes down to the F and E below middle C.

(I didn't think this was weird, because I can reach these notes easily, although one of the people who responded didn't seem to think this is too realistic. Maybe it isn't; when I said I was a soprano before, it wasn't because I was *suited* to be one-- they just desperately needed people who could sing acappella. I'm better at singing low than high! So altos-- tell me if this is too low for most of you!)

So-- do I keep this part with all those notes with little lines below the staff? Or do I write them within the staff and say "sing these an octave lower"? (It never occurred to me to write them with a bass clef! In fact, wouldn't that mess up people who sing, but don't play another instrument, and who therefore don't know how to read the bass clef?)

Re: Alto Notation Help

Reply #9 –
Angelique,

I sing a lot of choral music and my experience is as follows:

1) I can't remember ever seeing an alto section being asked to sing the E below middle C. I think I've seen F below middle C once or twice, but let me assure you that's a real stretch for most altos.

2) Use the ledger lines. I've absolutely never seen an 8va shift in any vocal part (except for the shifted treble clef itself in tenor parts).

3) Bass clef is never used for female voices.

4) Artur is right that there are clefs named for the voice parts, but except for the bass clef (which is standard), not one of the clefs he lists is ever used for vocal music, at least not in the English-speaking world and not in the last 100 years or more. (Also, the soprano clef I'm aware of is not C clef on the first line but G clef on the first line.)

I hope this helps.

- Grant

Re: Alto Notation Help

Reply #10 –
Gosh, I didn't see many replies from persons whom I would guess sing Alto!

Our church choir often has male/female switching in the Alto or Tenor parts depending upon who is available. Two females regularly sing Tenor, and can reach the mid-baritone range including the E below middle C. Of course, it does not have the sound characteristics of a male voice in that range. I do not know whether this compass is to be expected of other Altos, but I gather from the above replies that it is unusual.

Although the compass for a Bass ought to be much lower (and for quality Basses, is), experience indicates that men who can convincingly go below A flat (at the bottom line of the Bass clef) are not that easy to find. It seems to be an ethnic thing: Russians yes, Irish no, by and large. If the music you are writing is intended for church performance, keep in mind that chrches in general tend to be identified with particular ethnic segments of the population, at least where I live.

Any other comments about that?

Re: Alto Notation Help

Reply #11 –
Well, I consider myself to be a baritone, not a bass, but I have no problem getting below the stave (down to a D on a good day!). Mind you, you don't see many parts where you have to do that!

(Oh dear, we seem to be slipping off-topic rather!)

Anyway, I noticed that some of the templates posted on the scriptorium use the Alto clef for the alto line. Logical, I suppose, but I've never seen it used in practice.

Re: Alto Notation Help

Reply #12 –
Robin's correct. The files "Four-Part Voice.nwc" and "Blank Four-Part Voice Score.nwc" from "blanks.zip" have alto clef for the altos and tenor clef for the tenors. Anyone who tries to use these templates to create a vocal score is going to be unpleasantly surprised at the singers' reactions. (Interestingly, another file in the same collection, "SATBacc.nwc", gets things right.)

The offending files should probably be fixed so as not to mislead anyone into thinking these odd clefs are of any actual use when writing for voices.

Re: Alto Notation Help

Reply #13 –
... and have been as I type. Thanks Grant.

Andrew

Re: Alto Notation Help

Reply #14 –
..wish i knew how to sing alto..if anyone gets a hold of an awesome website that teaches how..leave one at: brwneyedgrl02_08@yahoo.com
thnx! :)

Re: Alto Notation Help

Reply #15 –
Hmmm... it all depends on range size. My mom is a soprano, but I have heard her hit the D below middle C-- She can go *very* high also. I've always seen alto written on treble cleff-- alto cleff is a bit unweildy.
Robin, you consider yourself a baritone? I'd say a D below the staff is a bit low for a baritone! Of there are two dif kinds of hitting a D... hitting a D when you just wake up and your voice is all low, and hitting a D at the end of a long day when you've been talking a lot. I'm a baritone and in the morning I can easily reach a D sometimes C... I have allergies though, so when they kick in even a G on the lowest line is hard-- mucus city. I'm only 16 though-- so maybe my voice will eventually be a bass.. I hate having to sing bass parts all the time that I can't really sing out nice and loud!

Side note- my uncles best friend(they are both opera singers) is a bass-- he can hit the G an octave below the G on the bottom ledger line of the bass staff and he can hit it *loud*. Needless to say, he's got it made, as true basses are hard to find.
Ev

Re: Alto Notation Help

Reply #16 –
> he can hit the G an octave below the G on the bottom ledger line of the bass staff and he can hit it *loud*.

Wow! That's what I call a bass!

I call myself a baritone, because I'm happiest hanging around in the middle somewhere.  I can get the low notes (and some pretty high ones on a good day), but I prefer not to stay there too long (particularly up the top!)

I think most of the people who know me would call me indecisive, so that makes me a typical baritone ;-)

Robin

Re: Alto Notation Help

Reply #17 –
Perhaps I should qualify that last statement... a typical amateur baritone!

Robin

Re: Alto Notation Help

Reply #18 –
That's what I call a contrabass ;) (with a 5th string lower then). If he was not the person you mentioned in https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=2160.msg12213#msg12213, then they could do duets :)
However, I do not know any score for such a range, and that's a pity. However, it's still possible to "double-bass", and sing some parts one octave lower. On Desprez's music or Poulenc's, it can be very beautiful; but this has to be done with caution, because it certainly changes the global rendition of the piece. And the choir master, of course, has something to say about it :)
Anyway, the piece I prefer to sing in deep bass is "16 tons", with a final A1 (three ledger lines under bass clef).

Robin: a typical amateur baritone is often the best voice :-)  At least you can learn 3 voices: bass, tenor, and (for hymn or usual songs) soprano...

Re: Alto Notation Help

Reply #19 –
This typical amateur baritone (who sings choir bass, barely) says:

Sounding a note, and singing it, are two different things. I can stand next to a piano, and given the tone I can groan out sounds lower than I can intelligably sing. Same at the high end. The low tone is a generic "uh" and the high is a generic "ah." But I cannot enunciate every vowel at the limits of my range, as I can in midrange.

I have noticed this in some English translations of hymns originally in German. The original, German vowel was one that "amateur baritones" can reach at lower limits. But the substitute English may be a different vowel that is not so easy to reach. Thus, I can sing the German better than I can sing the English. In similar fashion, I can do French and Italian better at the high end.

No doubt this principle applies to other voice ranges, including Alto.

Re: Alto Notation Help

Reply #20 –
Useless fact:

All vowel sounds are made up of two simultaneous frequencies (formed from the resonant cavities in the pharynx and mouth)which are fixed for each vowel. This means that Sopranos cannot physically sing some vowels where the frequency of the sung note is higher than the lower of the two vowel frequencies.

Re: Alto Notation Help

Reply #21 –
<sarcastic mode>
Robert, as you write "But I cannot enunciate every vowel at the limits of my range, as I can in midrange", now I discover that many opera singers have a very limited midrange with a large range.
</sarcastic mode>

More seriously, that's true that we can produce sounds in a wider range than what we can sing. Considering the understanding fo what is sung, but also considering the timbral & aesthetic of the sound. Falsetto voice (remember Bronski Beat's Jimmy Somerville?), for example, may be aesthetic after some years of work, but usually leads to strange sounds.

(during me writing this above, Peter added useful information) : aha, now there is an excuse for soprani, but not for alti nor tenor nor bass ;)

Re: Alto Notation Help

Reply #22 –
Another vote for lady tenors. My sister can hit a very adequate d below middle c. I was in a good church choir once that had two male altos and a strong female tenor, and it was a very good sound - more homogenous than a mixed choir usually is.

Another vote for leger lines. Singers seem to really stay oriented by the correspondence between the physical sensation of singing a particular pitch and its position on the staff; a clef change, an octave shift, or even a transposition of more than a semitone or two will really throw them off, even if they don't think they have a good absolute pitch sense.

I think the Sweet Adelines, the female barbershoppers, sometimes use a transposed bass clef for the low parts, but I may be wrong. Alto clef fits the tenor/low alto range perfectly, but I've tried with no success: you're not going to convince an untrained, or even a trained, singer to read it.

Re: Alto Notation Help

Reply #23 –
I'm only 16 though-- so maybe my voice will eventually be a bass..

A(n almost) month late rely: I thought everyone here was grown-up! I'm a year younger than you, Everett  . . .

Re: Alto Notation Help

Reply #24 –
Anybody still out there?  I need this question answered:  Do altos actually have a different tonal color than sopranos, or just a lower range?  My sopranos in choir often sing to F below middle C with some very gentle vocalises, but it is not really functional as a range for normal singing.  I am dismayed at the number of women I meet who were thrust into the alto section because there were no real altos around, and thus their upper range was never developed.  Now I am trying to change the opinion of a vocal teacher that I believe is limiting the range of his female students by carrying their chest voices harshly into their upper range - instead of teaching them to transition into their falsetto (I hate that term - it is NOT a false voice!).  My belief is that altos not only have a lower range, but also a more masculine tonal color, and so, in part, he should not be classifying these young ladies as altos.  I am anxious to gather evidence for my position as I believe these young voices are being damaged by a well intentioned teacher - who is a baritone, by the way and has not studied the teaching of voice.  Thanks.....

Re: Alto Notation Help

Reply #25 –
April: "Do altos actually have a different tonal color than sopranos, or just a lower range?"

Yes, it's the tonal colour that defines the voice "type", and the sub-division within the voice.  Range is strongly correlated - so much so that many, many people think it's the range that defines the voice type.

For example, in tenor-land there is the lyric tenor, whose sound is suited for (no prizes here) "lyrical" music; the tenorino, who has a lighter sound and usually slightly higher (and who is often called "Irish Tenor", even if he's from - say - New Zealand); the Heldentenor, who is noticably heavier than lyric and usually a little lower, and who usually gets the beefier parts; as well as others.

Just because a contralto - or soprano - has a range low enough to sing a part written for a tenor, it doesn't make her a "female tenor".  She's still a contralto or soprano singing with an atypical range.

April: "I am dismayed at the number of women I meet who were thrust into the alto section because there were no real altos around, and thus their upper range was never developed."

So am I, but you can understand why it happened, and continues to happen.  It's a trade-off.  Do you wait until you have enough trained and educated singers before forming your ensemble, or do you form it and encourage training?

April: "falsetto (I hate that term - it is NOT a false voice!)."

Don't use it then; we have a preferred alternative which fits nicely with "chest voice" - "head voice".

April: "Now I am trying to change the opinion of a vocal teacher that I believe is limiting the range of his female students by carrying their chest voices harshly into their upper range - instead of teaching them to transition into their falsetto... .  My belief is that altos not only have a lower range, but also a more masculine tonal color, and so, in part, he should not be classifying these young ladies as altos. I am anxious to gather evidence for my position as I believe these young voices are being damaged by a well intentioned teacher - who is a baritone, by the way and has not studied the teaching of voice. Thanks....."

If your teacher has not studied voice training, you might want to think about changing teachers, at least for vocal technique.  He may still have other things to offer, such as vocal interpretation (especially if he is a good singer himself), or theory, etc, etc.

You are right to be concerned about singing inappropriately in chest (or head), but you might not be able to change his teaching method.  Perhaps by demonstrating correct technique over time, and letting him hear the difference?

A final comment: People are often told they are a certain voice type because the nicest sounding part of their undeveloped voice matches a text-book definition of the voice type's range.  If the person never goes on to develop the voice, then they're at least gaining some pleasure in singing "nicely".  For a lot of people, that's enough.  It's definitely more enriching than never singing at all.  Some of us want or need more, but we must never assume that what's right for us is right for everybody.

Re: Alto Notation Help

Reply #26 –
I am a Second alto in an advanced SSAA choir.  The couple of F's with an E is fine!

Trilligoy for womens voices.. a song we are singing now has us hold the low e for a while.

Most songs will have atleast one F.

We usually sit around G/A.

Re: Alto Notation Help

Reply #27 –
The old C and tenor clefs are obsolete for new choral work although they are still used instrumentally.

The SATB work in 4 staves is hard to read and we have just finished re-setting the Stainer Crucifixion for publication where all the parts have been put in cloed score. It made rehearsal so much easier as one could se the other parts and their entries too.

In closed score the sops and altos share a stave with the G clef and the tenors and basses likewise with the bass clef. When shared like that tails etc. will be up for the higher part and down for the lower.
Tenors are still expected to read the G clef fluently (with or without the shift marking). Where we had a 4 part tenor/bass passage this was reset in closed score by putting the two tenor parts on one stave with a shifted G clef and the basses on the lower stave. That proved very clear at rehearsal.
My wife teaches voice and I will let her comment on vocal technique.