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Topic: NWC developer network? (Read 10771 times) previous topic - next topic

NWC developer network?

I have a suggestion and would like your and Noteworthy's comment on it...

I would like to propose that we organize a group of noteworthy users to act as researcher-developers to speed up development time for the features on the drawing board.

They would of course have to sign a confidentiality agreement (and of course have programming skills in psuedo code or plain code).

See, there are many features that users have developed but they haven't yet been integrated into the software. For example, people have written code for chord splitting and drum tracks yet it's not in the software and I suspect some users would forfeit those things because it's not easily accessible.

I believe that something like a NWC developer network would facilitate development by a large factor. Additionally it would give the company more time for sales and customer service. I believe that with a notch up in development Noteworthy will become the industry workhorse for musical notation.

Re: NWC developer network?

Reply #1 –
Hmm.. not sure about this one. I'd certainly like to get hold of details of the file format at least, so I could fix things like MIDI import handling triplets properly (HINT, HINT!). On the other hand, this is a shareware product, not open source. Noteworthy do want to make money out of it (and they deserve to!). There's also the problem of quality control. If every Tom, Dick or Harry had the opportunity to mess with the code, testing the mods becomes that much more complicated.

So, on balance, nice idea, but I can't see Noteworthy going for it, for perfectly valid reasons.

Robin Withey

Re: NWC developer network?

Reply #2 –
>>>On the other hand, this is a shareware product, not open source.

Wasn't suggesting open source. Was suggesting that applications for sidemen developers be taken, so that there's a bigger group of guys doing the groundwork for features on the wish-list.

>>>> Noteworthy do want to make money out of it (and they deserve to!). There's also the problem of quality control. If every Tom, Dick or Harry had the opportunity to mess with the code, testing the mods becomes that much more complicated.

yada.
tom, dick and harry is your invention.
I want to know that the company has an ongoing development so that they can better grant some customer needs, and this was a suggestion to that end.
if it were volunteer based this would not impact on the price, and there are users who have skills and can contribute.

Re: NWC developer network?

Reply #3 –
Not being a software developer, I wouldn't know. But...
Would it be possible for NWC to enable "plug-ins"? Those of you who use a product such as Adobe Photoshop know what I mean. A better analogy would be sound fonts for sound cards.
Unless I miss my guess, though, adding a plug-in feature to NWC might be a major coding change, or cause more headaches than it's worth.

Re: NWC developer network?

Reply #4 –
Not a bad idea at all I say. Although I doubt the extent to which it will all remain voluntary, when NWC picks up and starts being more successful. Okay, at that level NWA could pay, but, lets get there first.

As for plugins, I think it can all get way too messy from a compatibility point of view - MIDI isn't as simple as graphics. One plugin will work with my card but possibly not with yours. Plus added costs for the user. I think the first idea is more viable. As for open source... Naaah...

But judging from the absence of a NWS reply, I guess sneeze cast the cube...

Re: NWC developer network?

Reply #5 –
It takes a lot of time to get a new developer up to speed and to evaluate and integrate the results, so the work done is not "free". Then there is the risk of the volunteer developer not finishing the job successfully, or letting the source code get loose on the net.

Plug-ins would take a re-write of the product, so that approach is definitely not worth it.

Maybe there is a way of licensing the source code so that only Noteworthy can sell the product, sort of a restricted open-source. Even then, there is a lot of co-ordination (to prevent people wasting their time duplicating work) and integration of people's submissions. All a big risk. Look at the Mozilla (Netscape 6) effort - it has taken an awful long time and the result is still very buggy. There is a lot to be said for a small, tight software team. In my experience productivity declines exponentially with the number of developers on a project.

I am pretty sure that, right or wrong, our role in the product is not going to change very much.

Re: NWC developer network?

Reply #6 –
Okay then.
I ask...

Is Noteworthy just going to play the home market and support with one developer...
OR...
get 1 or more programmmer(s), developer network or other plan to bring the software to the next level?

Until they get drums and other basic features that the other programs have, I believe that Noteworthy will primarily remain a beginner/amateur tool. (it's just not equipped for the music industry yet)

Additionally, the benefit is that by the addition of more functionality, Noteworthy will become the first choice for the professional and home musician/composer alike. Let's say that the improved Noteworthy sells for $40 with the same or better features as Program X that sells for $120. Wouldn't this scenario be equally beneficial to:
1. Noteworthy
2. The current customer base
3. The new customers as a result of development

What do you think?

As a separate suggestion:
Another alternative would be to develop a "professional" edition which has far more advanced features. Add drums to the current version and it can be the workhorse for years to come while you develop the pro version.

I would love to know what Noteworthy's wishes are. If they aren't interested then those who feel like I do are barking up the wrong tree. If they give us an idea of what they would like to do, it will help us ALL to suggest the right things in the future! Please work with us!

Thank you.

Re: NWC developer network?

Reply #7 –
"...Until they get drums and other basic features that the other programs have, I believe that Noteworthy will primarily remain a beginner/amateur tool. (it's just not equipped for the music industry yet)..."

That could easily be taken as an insult by anyone -- like myself -- who is not a beginner/amateur and considers NWC to be entirely adequate. And which music industry? 90% of the work I do doesn't even involve drums, and that which does uses the virtual drummer in my synth. It's a lot more polite.

Re: NWC developer network?

Reply #8 –
> It takes a lot of time to get a new developer up to speed > and to evaluate and integrate the
> results, so the work done is not "free".

Volunteer work is not free? :-)

> Then there is the risk of the volunteer developer not
> finishing the job successfully, or letting the source code > get loose on the net.

Then there is also the equally damaging risk of the space shuttle crashing into the noteworthy building. :-)

> Plug-ins would take a re-write of the product, so that
> approach is definitely not worth it.

Agreed!

> Maybe there is a way of licensing the source code so that > only Noteworthy can sell the
> product, sort of a restricted open-source. Even then, there is a lot of co-ordination (to prevent
> people wasting their time duplicating work) and integration of people's submissions. All a big
> risk. Look at the Mozilla (Netscape 6) effort - it has taken an awful long time and the result is
> still very buggy. There is a lot to be said for a small, tight software team.

Agreed. However isn't noteworthy's current development team comprised of... 1? Wouldn't another person increase work done by 75%-100%? This has been my experience.
I also think it's time for noteworthy to go into the next gear and be more focused on current needs of notation software. I mean, they could be writing web browser player plugins (ala nw player) and a hundred other user wants isntead of us hanging on for basics like chord splitting, staff merging and drum notation.

Re: NWC developer network?

Reply #9 –
<<<<<<<<<< Then there is the risk of the volunteer developer not finishing the job successfully, or letting the source code get loose on the net. >>>>>>>>>

To me the addition of features by volunteers would be at a lower level, ie, psuedo code, stand-alone code or with the core libraries of noteworthy that are totally useless on their own. Work could be assigned component based - "okay steve, here's the noteworthy file format, write a noteworthy player screensaver."

Re: NWC developer network?

Reply #10 –
The key, then, to either after-market plugins or add-ons, or to proprietary additions written by outside programmers, would be the release of the nwc file format. Or rather, all of the file formats; this has changed over the versions and any new software would presumably have to be reverse-compatible to earlier file formats. If NoteWorthy Software were to take this option, it would be a bold step indeed, and as far as I know a "first" for the industry. Such an action could well be the proverbial double-edged sword, in the sense that purveyors of other softwares could use NWC-file importability as a selling feature for their products. OTOH, it could mean increased sales of NW Composer. All in all, it's a decision I'm glad I don't have to make...

Re: NWC developer network?

Reply #11 –
As I said in a reply posted earlier today in the "NWC on Linux???" thread, I'd to be able to use NWC as the front end to Lilypond (http://www.lilypond.org),,) which is a very interesting and powerful text-based language for typesetting music, and is free (as in GNU) software. NWC is far superior to any notation editor available on Linux, and I doubt that will change anytime soon.

The key to doing anytthing like this is to have the NWC file format spec, so that tools can be written to translate between the different formats.

Re: NWC developer network?

Reply #12 –
okay people who need drums, SPEAK UP!!!
I JUST CAN'T WAIT ANY LONGER

Re: NWC developer network?

Reply #13 –
WHoaw, Fred, from reading your stuff for a while I thought you were positive towards the addition of new features but this is a back step for you.

And why must people quote the little bit they don't like?? Why can't you agree on anything the others say? This seems to be a habit from people who use usenet, always bickering and carrying on - saying what they want and stamping their name on it!! :-) :-)

But, I digress...

I reckon the drum notation is as important as the treble clef. Most performed music has drums - drummers don't always improvise, many of them can read and make arrangements work quite well... why ridicule the importance of drum notation?

Re the people who use Noteworthy:
What do the gigging musicians think about how fundamental it is to be able to notate drum tracks properly? What do the band directors think about how fundamental it is to be able to notate drum tracks properly? What do the college music students think about how fundamental it is to be able to notate drum tracks properly? And the arrangers? And the composers?

(so really, just because you use synthetic sampled [non-musician] sounds, doesn't mean the program can't be patched to allow music to be written for real drummers.) Drummers exist in most every live band!

And I agree with one of the above, why won't noteworthy say anything? Please these guys are beggin' you.

This has kinda deviated a bit but I agree about whether Noteworthy is going to a remain in the backwoods. Are they looking at development or still sitting on their laurels with occasional walks to the coffee machine? Just because Fred Nachbaur can do without drum notation doesn't mean the program can't have it. In fact, if it doesn't, and Noteworthy doesn't give me a hint soon, I know what to do with some moeny I lately scored.

ps: i'd never record in a studio that didn't work with real drums -- that'd be a joke.

Re: NWC developer network?

Reply #14 –
Ah Choo writes: "Until they get drums and other basic features that the other programs have, I believe that Noteworthy will primarily remain a beginner/amateur tool. (it's just not equipped for the music industry yet)"

There is a lot to be said for a "beginner/amateur tool". There are a lot of us beginners and amateurs around.

When I bought NWC V1.30 I was highly delighted with its capabilities and thought it excellent value for money. Since then, at no extra cost to me, all sorts of extra functions and capabilities have been added. But also my capabilites and need for functions have increased. There are now some areas where my ambition outstrips NWC's capabilities (notably n-tuplets, percussion notation, comprehensive control over part extraction from scores) and as features get added I see new possibilities for further enhancement. However, that does not mean that its value for money has decreased in any way - NWC still does what it did when I bought it ... and more ... and it isn't costing me anything.

The decision I (and other users) have to make is - do I stay with NWC and hope it will catch up with my ambitions or do I pay £(insert large number here) to get another piece of software that caters for my every need?

The answer to that depends on how much I value my hobby. At present my answer is: not enough to warrant buying more software. I can live with NWC's current limitations (but I hope they will be overcome). Other users may place different values on these things.

If NWC turns into a full-feature/high-cost package in its next incarnation (V2.0?) - well, it just goes on the list with other similar packages that I might buy if I win the lottery. If it turns into a full-feature/low-cost package - well, hip-hip hooray! my order is on its way.

It is nice to be able to express our opinions on how NWC should develop and to nudge Eric into whatever direction we feel most useful but we need to recognise that when we bought whatever version of NWC we have, we made a judgement that it was worth what we paid - the trial version doesn't hide any of the shortcomings. The subsequent ZERO COST enhancements are pure bunce. For what it is worth, my opinion is that NWC's main distinguishing characteristic is its low cost. I hope that it will maintain this so that it will continue to allow amateurs like me to dabble and improve. It is nice to know that pros like Fred can get such good results with the same tool.

Returning to the subject of whether volunteer developers would be a Good Thing. Maybe they would, but there is a big risk that they could be a Bad Thing. We have the evidence of Eric's good work to date that he can cut the mustard. Suppose coding your pet wish gets allocated to a.n.o. volunteer developer who is keen but incompetent, or competent but finds it difficult to give the unpaid work any priority. I don't suggest that the would-be volunteers who have contributed to this thread fall into either category - but who would select the volunteer developers (how much more difficult is it to refuse an offer of free help than to sack someone?) Who would manage the volunteers? Who would resolve disputes? Eric could end up spending so much time chasing volunteers that he has no time to do the development himself.

I suggest that we maintain our patience, continue to nag Eric (with dollops of good humour attached) to add the enhancements we personally wish for, and promote the sales of NWC to others so that if Eric needs help he will be making enough money to employ a dozen software engineers.

Stephen Randall

Re: NWC developer network?

Reply #15 –
I'm with Fred (Reply 11). I use NWC a lot in my piano teaching, and don't need special drum notation nor other non-classical specialties.

Re: NWC developer network?

Reply #16 –
The issue I had with the previous post was the exact statement referenced. I have no disagreement with the rest of the post; if all of us started posting about everything with which we agreed, every thread would become even longer than the now-famous "midi to mp3" thread.

I also am not opposed to progress and improvement. It comes down to priorities; for some, the highest priority is n-tuplet handling, for others it's drum notation. It also has to do with attitude - if someone were to request something from me personally, that would have a better chance of success than if it were phrased as a demand containing hidden threats (if you don't... then I will...).

Finally, I'd like to point out that at the Selkirk College Professional Music Program (an offshoot of Berklee School of Music) here in town, drummers are taught to read standard musical notation in addition to the specialised "drum" notation. I showed one of my scores with drum notation processed using Barry Graham's "Drumkit" program to the drum instructor, who assured me that any professional drummer would be able to read it. Given that, I'm not inclined to add my voice to the demand for special drumhead shapes, or other shaped notes for that matter.

Re: NWC developer network?

Reply #17 –
Regular readers of thie forum won't be surprised that I'm with Fred on this one, for what it's worth.

Might I also mention that references to "the music industry" make my skin crawl? As though music were something to be cranked out on a production line like hot dogs or minivans. Ye gods.

Re: NWC developer network?

Reply #18 –
Fred has a good point, as usual.

As someone who used to work in marketing (not sales) in an industry note related to music, I would note this general principle: Don't spray-paint an orange yellow in hopes of competing against a banana. And, just because someone already has a banana, that doesn't mean an orange wouldn't be a nice complement.

Re: NWC developer network?

Reply #19 –
"I would note this general principle: Don't spray-paint an orange yellow in hopes of competing
against a banana. And, just because someone already has a banana, that doesn't mean an
orange wouldn't be a nice complement."

okay, re the drum notation... all I'm asking for is a some cream with my banana - I can't afford the orange. give me drum notation or give me death!

Re: NWC developer network?

Reply #20 –
Well, death is inevitable. Drum notation, OTOH, is optional.
We can only hope for you that you'll get the latter before the former.

Re: NWC developer network?

Reply #21 –
Might I also mention that references to "the music industry" make my skin crawl? As though
music were something to be cranked out on a production
line like hot dogs or minivans. Ye
gods.

well, well well Grant! our experiences differ! most musician/composers I'm aware of and work with all have been very creative musically, writing things all the time. if you want to complain about people churning out music Beethoven and Bach must have been the biggest crooks at that game. :) might I mention that Noteworthy is ideal for the musician who needs to notate music quickly for arrangement, transposition or transcription - it's so handy - I see nothing wrong with writing lots of perfectly good music. (to re-assure I'm not talking about what is perceived as mainstream music - britney spears, et al)

i was talking about the music industry I work in, as a songwriter and studio musician (jazz and live recorded pop music - swing, ska, rock). it's not unusual for me to notate several songs in a week. as a writer I have to cultivate the creative writing process by writing whenever I feel that I have to. (not writing by default, altho I can work out arrangements when i'm not feeling overly creative) my main instruments are piano, keyboards and drums - I really would like to be able to notate a drum track in noteworthy, even if only to reference it in performance.

I'm all for the incredible benefit Noteworthy is to students -- indeed, it's the best one out there for that. i'm just suggesting that those extra key features will give noteworthy that much more prominence, without any alteration to the interface. (my attitude was initally eager suggestion, not a begging plea! I was after some feedback, also from Noteworthy)
additionally, because noteworthy is quite good at what it does I'm convinced that it has much more potential than it is capable of at the mo'. at the rate it's going i imagine many potential customers are passing it by.
so n-tuplets and drum notation it is! when are the completions dates Noteworthy? October for drums? November for n-tuplets? (feedback to that would certainly re-assure me and allow me to confidentally recommend it)

ah choo

Re: NWC developer network?

Reply #22 –
<<<<<< Well, death is inevitable. Drum notation, OTOH, is optional. We can only hope for you that you'll get the latter before the former. >>>>>>

hehehehe :-) that all depends on Noteworthy

Re: NWC developer network?

Reply #23 –
Way back in reply #5 I said it was unlikely we could use plug-ins. As pointed out by subsequent threads, that is not true - the NWC file can be treated as an interface for plug-ins. It would take some effort (but I think not a lot) to document the file format, but the benefit is that people could write extensions without further involvement from Noteworthy. Useful extensions would be a better Midi import, and a NIFF import so we can make better use of scanning software. I am sure people would come up with other goodies.

I can't see how it could hurt business, unless there is a better program we should all be using but don't only because we are stuck with all our NWC files. I don't think that is the case! Being able to export to other programs would increase the appeal of Noteworthy Composer.