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Topic: Im not sure, But I could use some help. (Read 20372 times) previous topic - next topic

Im not sure, But I could use some help.

I have searched the database, alibet quickly, but have found nothing on my subject. My question is simple. I need to find a way to Encode .wav files as Midi files. The reason is this, I am in the process of creating a site for the Disemination of Art, Literature and MUSIC. However, the sever I wish to go with, "Will not support .mp3 files". In all other respects the server is excellent, and has superb pings, reputation, etc. A 7 min, 20 sec .wave file is 75MB and is thus unsuitable. Midi files, being as widespread and common as they are, seem the next best choice to .mp3 files. I have considerd Skins, but do not want to mess with such an ( In my opinion ) and obscure format. Of course, I am not that knowlegable about computers and this is why I am making this post. I am only hoping this is an open forum for all, otherwise, I may very well have stepped on my ba***. Thank you for your time and consideration.

Sincerly,

Joseph Richmond

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #1
Hi Joseph,

Yes, your question has been posed before; the upshot of it is that while there are programs that purport to convert wav to midi, they only work with very simple sounds - i.e. little or no polyphony, and only harmonically pure sounds like flutes, whistles, etc.

For recorded music, mp3 is the medium of choice for publishing on the internet at this time. Why won't your ISP allow mp3's? If it's because of the (admittedly very real) concern about piracy, perhaps you could explain to them what you are doing and why... perhaps they could make an exception if convinced that anything you post will be fully and completely free of copyright infringments.

Failing that, I'd suggest getting NoteWorthy Composer and creating your own midi files!

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #2
First off I want to thank anybody and everybody for any help that has been and will be proffered. :)
I believe that I should make several things clear. I have sent several emails to the webmaster at the server, but have yet to recieve a response. It is stated in the posted acceptable use policy that any account with .mp3 files in it will be deleted because they do not want the accounts to become storage areas. I had not thought of piracy, how would you pirate .mp3 files? Hmmmm. Makes you wonder if RealPlayer G2's copy to disk option as files.
As for music In general *humbly* I am a rank novice. I found a utility that when given a set of parameters will generate random music, but, the results are at best eirie and at worst downright wierd. As for getting noteworthy... Hmmm... I only want to convert existing music to compression format that is acceptable for most servers.
Making my own music *snickers* It would be worse than the stuff created by my random generator, but why not? Im always trying to learn stuff anyway.

Oh, yes. If you would like a forum to post your work, I would be glad to do so on my site. submit any files to my email address, Fineview@Localnet.com. Dont forget to add information about the author, so I can credit its creator.
As well as any other information that is applicable ( Ie:links to YOUR site, your email address if you want, etc. )

Thak you once again for your time and consideration in this matter, and I will seriously consider that app...

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #3
Oops... forgot that the Forum is html, therefore in proportional fonts on most browsers. Select the table with your mouse, CNTL C to copy to clipboard, then open NotePad, WordPad or PFE (or other text editor using proportional fonts) and open a new file, CNTL V to paste.

Fred

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #4
I have not idea what that was ^_^. Was it meant for me? Well anyway, I have been looking at both .wav compression ( Which as far as I can tell, bites. ) and .VQF compresion, ( But I forgot to get a player. ). I think I will try the .VQF, I will just have to add a link to a player.

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #5
Joseph,

Perhaps it would help if you understood *why* there is
a difference in size between WAV format and MIDI and why it
is difficult to convert WAV into MIDI.

First, WAV format is (as the name suggests) a digital
representation of the actual sound waves which comprise
the sound. Imagine measuing the amplitude of the sound
wave lots of times. Each sample is either 8 or 16 bits and
the samples are taken at 8KHz, 11KHz, 22KHz or 44KHz (KHz
is thousands per second). So, at the lowest resolution (8 bits) and lowest frequency (8KHz) you need to store 8000x8
bits per second or around 480KB / minute. At the highest
it's 16x44000 or a bit over 10MB/minute.

MIDI is a completely different method for storing sounds.
Instead of saving the wave form, it stores the "notes" as
if played by a musician. Since it only takes a few bytes to
say "play middle C for 10 seconds", MIDI tends to be
significantly more compact than WAV format.

NWC format describes the notes too, so converting between
MIDI and NWC formats is possible in both directions.
Converting MIDI to WAV is quite easy too, just "play" the
MIDI file and record the WAV data just like any other sound
source. Going in the other direction isn't quite so easy.
The software would have to be able to pick out each "voice"
and figure out a sequence of notes which would reproduce
the sound. Some would say that for even moderately complex
sounds, this task is all but impossible, or would involve
a representation that is so complex you would not gain
much in space.

As has been mentioned, there *are* programs which are
claimed to be able to convert WAV files into MIDI, but
most of the comments I've seen are that they are dissapointing.

MP3, on the other hand, is a method of compressing WAV like
data to reduce the amount of storage. It relies on two
things, first, the data streams tend to be reasonably
predictable and may be sparse (that is, contain long
repetitive sections). Second, the psychology of perceiving
sounds involves the brain focusing on only some parts of the
actual wave form. MP3 algorithms can identify the important
bits and supress the unimportant bits, thus saving space
without changing the sound enough for most people to
notice (though it would probably look very different on
an oscilloscope)

The connection between piracy and MP3 is very real. Consider
that a CD containing an hour of music in stereo 16 bit 22KHz
in WAV like format takes up 600MB. Storing that on a server
and/or copying it across a network would be prohibitively
expensive, so there is little incentive for anyone to do it.
On the other hand, if the same hour of music could be stored
in (say) 6MB or even 60MB, the whole picture changes
drammatically. Suddenly it's feasible for you to pirate the
tracks from the latest CD or even the whole thing and make
it available to the world at large via the web. I don't
know the exact compression ratio, but I've seen claims of
70 hours of music on a 4GB disk from reliable sources.

Naturally the record companies are terrified of MP3 and are
doing their best to stamp it out. For example, intimidating
ISPs to refuse to store MP3 format files under threat of
copyright infringement lawsuits.

What they *should* be doing is actually *exploiting* the
new format and cashing in on it, but that's another story...

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #6
^_^ Yes I do understand the difference between .wav and .mid files and I had the felling this would happen.
*sigh* I am going to have to rethink the way Im doing this.
Thank you all for your time and consideration in this matter.

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #7
I am just beginning research on this subject, myself. MY angle, however, is checking out all the info on WAV file compression. There seems to be a lot of info out. How about YOU working that angle as well. Finding software that will compress WAV files without too much loss. I've seen ratios of 10:1 and 30:1 given. I am only in the preliminary stage, and have not tried any sofware as of yet.

KenJ


Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #9
If your server doesn't accept MP3s, for the reasons Fred mentions, maybe the VQF is accepted, since less known. It is of beeter quality than MP3, but less programs do read it (though there is a plug-in for win-Amp, for instance). It's so good in fact that I believe it's the base of the MP4 format (which keeps track, also, of who creates the file and so on, allowing editors to track piracy).
You'll find details on http://www.vqf.com/faq.php3 with everything you need to try yourself.
mainly, it's of higher quality for a smaller size, but needs more % CPU to be read (30% instead of 15-20% for example, depending on your CPU).

HTH, but take care about copyrights. Look at what happened to www.lyrics.ch!!! You may want to honour a singer or any artist, if (s)he doesn't agree with publishing the lyrics or extracts, you'll be against the law!
Long life to your site anyway :)

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #10
Hmm. .wav file compression would be nice, I have seen that some limited compression was included with win98. As for Obscure fomrats, it is only obscure now. I could offer a player ( Or links to such on my page ). The music that I am offering is from cd ^_^, in specific, it is classical music. As a matter of fact, since I am activly seeking outside sources of info, I have been VERY carefull to document any and all sources and give credit where it is due. I do not mean anything mean or malicous or Illegal, I simply want to distribute such material. I will look into and seriously consider the suggested options. Once agian I want to thank everybody for their time, effort, consideration and enthusiasim in this matter.

Humbly yours,

Joseph Richomnd

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #11
-------------------------------------------------------
| FROM: TO:> | TREBLE | ALTO | TENOR | BASS |
| \/ | - - - - | - - - - | - - - - | - - - - |
| TREBLE ---> | --- | up 6 | up 8 | up 12 |
| ALTO ---> | down 6 | --- | up 2 | up 6 |
| TENOR ---> | down 8 | down 2 | --- | up 4 |
| BASS ---> | down 12 | down 6 | down 4 | --- |
-------------------------------------------------------

For additional octaves, add or subtract 7 as required.

HTH :-)

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #12
Oops again. (I'm on a roll...) This should have gone into the "Tenor clef" thread. Sorry about that.

F

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #13
Joseph, it seems that the root of your problem is not converting wave to MIDI, but rather that your server won't accept mp3 files. What about disguising them by creating a self extracting .exe file with Winzip or similar compression utility. All your recipient needs to do is run the .exe file to retrieve the mp3. Your server will not know you're posting music unless he checks the .exe (or you tell him!). Just a thought, Peter.

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #14
If you're planning on posting classical music you got from CD, keep in mind that the *performances* are probably still under copyright even if the performed material is in the public domain. This is one very excellent reason for making your own MIDI or NWC files, since these are *your* performances and therefore you own the copyright.

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #15
I was hopeing for suitible compression so that the music could be drawn from the server and played that way. As for not telling, I tend to shy away from lying or withholding information. My own preformances? I realy would have not clue how to do so. I am no musician. I do understand, however, what you are saying about 'preformances'. I did not know this, but it is probably better that this was addressed. As for the root of the problem... Yes, that is correct. The .mid format seemed the best choice, and may still be. Still, knowing what I do now, I have to seriously
rethink my strategy.

Humbly Yours,

Joseph Richmond

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #16
The difficulty with streaming audio (as it's called when you "play while downloading") is that you either accomodate those with fast modem connections (e.g. cablemodem, T1) and offer high-quality files like mp3, or you accomodate those unfortunates amongst us (at this time probably still the majority) that rely on conventional phone lines, and settle for much lower quality (e.g. "RealAudio").

The other aspect is required system resources. I at first offered mp2 audio on my website, to accomodate those with lesser machines than Pentium. Since then I've found an mp3 player that will run adequately if not superbly on as little as 486DX2-66, so have replaced with mp3... albeit still somewhat hesitantly.

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #17
http://www.spaceports.com/
It has occured to me, that my base problem is with the provider itself. If I was to find a different provider, I would not have this problem. Granted, I appreciate the help in finding the best audio format for my site... But it may be better if I just find a different providor. *sighs* And it was so good too. The link above is to the homepage for the providor I wish to go with. As for streaming, what about .asf files?( Audio Streaming Format ) It is decent quality, proven track record and high compatiblity? Once again, thank you for your time, consideration and enthusiasm.

Ever your Humble servant,

Joseph Richmond

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #18
Hello Joseph,

I do believe your other main problem, besides your provider, is the fact that you cannot *legally* rip your music CD's and post the songs without express WRITTEN permission from the Publisher, Copyright holders, etc.

I have wanted to put some of the songs I sing in church onto a web site to share with other christians looking for songs for worship.

For those songs where we have purchased the printed scores, and performed the music live, those recordings are fine as we "own" the performance. (Assuming the printed material we purchased gives that permission, many do but you still have to be careful. Some purely allow live performance but no recording for any sort of "distribution", even free.)

However, I have also purchased several songbooks and accompaniment CD's/tapes, and have sung these in church as well. I cannot put recordings of these onto my web site as permission is extended only to live performance using these materials. So even though I "performed" the song, because I used the CD/Tape in the performance I must get written permission to post these to the web.

Actually, the same thing could be true of MIDI files you sequence, if the printed material does not give permission to "distribute" your performance. Of course, much classical is in the public domain, as already mentioned, and so this wouldn't apply. But someone's ARRANGEMENT of the music might be protected... ah, it can get complicated.

See WWW.PRS.NET -- The Classical Music (MIDI) Archives. Wonderful music available for downloading there. Perhaps you might put links on your page to this source...

Good Luck!

Sue

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #19
The Basic Beethoven -- Disc 2 - Ludwig Van Beethoven (Simon Addison & The English Philharmonic Orchestra) - Symphony No. 5 in C Minor Op. 67 -- Allegro con brio .
That is the only classical song on the site. The other music is misc. stuff.
Heh. Maybe I should cut music alltoghether? The chances, in reality, that I would be prosected are slim, though the grounds would exist. It is like a tape. You are not supposed to copy, but you do anyway, and only use it for personal use. You dont get sent to jail, but it is illegal.
Hmmm. I will keep in mind what I have been told.

Humbly Yours,

Joseph Richmond

P.s. : If you are looking to post "Origional Prefromances" I would be happy to do so. :)

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #20
Well, when you say "It is like a tape. You are not supposed to copy, but you do anyway, and only use it for personal use. You dont get sent to jail, but it is illegal.", I can't read it without this thought: on some tapes (or any material) you *may* make a *single* copy for your *own* usage. Et encore, I can't use photocopies of scores I bought, in concerts: I do have to use the original.

But displaying copies on a web site means copying for anyone, so you're breaking the law.

on another reply: "What about (...) creating a self extracting .exe file" : you put away all Unix+Mac+Amiga+other users. Unless you plan to put .gz, .sit, and so on.

To Sue: where's your site? :)

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #21
Hi MAD Marsu,

Thanks for asking about the web site! Sorry to report, it's not up (for now), for just the reasons being discussed here. We (the church) are very concerned about copyright. If/when it comes back, I'll let you know! :>

If I may make a brief (unsolicited and uncompensated) plug for a web site of original christian music, see my friends' site: http://songsofpraise.org

Contemporary up-beat praise style, completely free for worship and personal use, CCLI registered but no fees requested. Many of these are very very nice, I have sung several in my church. (If you want to hear yours truly singing one of them, see
http://www.mp3.com/artists/22/songs_of_praise.html
and look for the song "I Praise You, My Father". I can use all the fans I can get! :>) )

Nice folk, my internet friends from Texas!

Sue

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #22
I am trying to burn MID files to CD using my PC software and it is not compatible. Does anyone know how I can convert MID files to WAV??? Or know software that can be used with my CD burner?? I have Roxio Project Selector software. Any help would be appreciated. If you can please email me at fryg63@yahoo.com, thanks Gordie

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #23
There's been a lot of discussion about this issue on the online forum. For example, you might want to look at https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=1930.

If you don't find what you need there, you might want to do your own search. Just click on the "Search Messages" link at the top of this page.

HTH

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #24
I need to know about Black holes

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #25
Same as White ones. Only darker.

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #26
How can a hole have a colour?  By definition, a hole is something that isn't there, so it's whatever colour the thing behind it is.

Yours pedantically
Robin

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #27
Ringo: "Oi've got an 'ole in me pocket." IIRC, it was a White one.

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #28
Black holes and white holes both escape the restriction on holes with colors because black and white aren't colors.

I know this because black and white objects showed up clearly on the television we had when I was a young child, yet - and this is the important point - it wasn't a color television!

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #29
Ah!  So black and white TVs are made up of different coloured (sorry, monochromed!) holes!

Robin

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #30
No, but the transistors from which they're made rely on the presence of holes to operate. Not sure of the color. Presumably the ones in B&W sets are either black or white.

Fred [wondering how long we can keep up this silliness. Guess I shouldn't have fed the troll, sorry, couldn't resist.]

Incidentally, the black portions of a TV picture aren't black at all - they're the greeny-gray colour of the unlit CRT itself. :)

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #31
May I ask, what color is a "black light"?

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #32
No, you may not. ;-)

Re: Im not sure, But I could use some help.

Reply #33
A "black light" produces electromagnetic radiation in the ultraviolet range.  It's called "black" because we can't see it, and therefore can't tell what color it really is.  On the other hand, other creatures, for example honeybees, can.  Think about that the next time you see a bee buzzing about -- it knows something you don't know, namely what color  "black light" is.  A pity it can't tell us.