Bells Used Chart

Topic: Bells Used Chart (Read 9482 times) previous topic - next topic

Bells Used Chart

2018-08-27 04:40 pm

Hi

I'm looking for help on creating a bells used chart for a score that includes handbells.

This is what it will look like: centred under the title, non-playing, measures would need to start with the actual piece, not the bells.

https://musescore.com/mike_magatagan/create-a-handbells-used-chart-in-musescore-1x

There was a NWC discussion on this years ago here: https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=1288.msg6504#msg6504

but I'm not sure if that is the best approach these days. I'd appreciate your input.

Thanks

Re: Bells Used Chart

Reply #1 – 2018-08-27 05:35 pm

One idea is a separate staff that vanishes after the first line; and all the other staves emerge only on the second line (i.e., after a system break on the first staff) - see attachment BellChart-A.

A somewhat simpler solution is to use the top staff as the chart staff in the first line; however, it seems that one has, then, to live with a staff label on the chart line if one needs labels ... see BellChart-B.

Suitable gaps center the chart on the first line. Its notes are muted and, additionally, skipped via 1./2. endings. Bar counting is done with a BarCounter.nw object that starts counting after the chart.

Maybe something better can be developed from these ideas ...

H.M.

Re: Bells Used Chart

Reply #2 – 2018-08-27 05:54 pm

Your other option would be to insert a BellsUsed.ms object at the beginning of your score, and configure the various options, such as the notes you want to appear.

Oh wait, you can't do that yet, because I would need to write it first

Maybe a plugin object isn't the best way to do this, but it might be an interesting project, if you don't get suitable results with the other approaches offered. It would also allow for some additional options, such as a reduced staff size (if needed).

Re: Bells Used Chart

Reply #3 – 2018-08-27 06:33 pm

Thank you for the suggestions. I had figured everything out except for the bar counter because I don’t usually use that but this might be a good opportunity to try it out.

Mike, if you feel like that would be an interesting project to take on then by all means please do! I will be writing more handbell music in the future, I believe. You fooled me there for minute, and I’m glad I did not miss an existing user object. We have to keep up with Muscore don’t we?

Re: Bells Used Chart

Reply #4 – 2018-08-27 07:08 pm

Quote from: Mike Shawaluk – 2018-08-27 05:54 pm

... to insert a BellsUsed.ms object ...

Well, a CueStaff.hmm object does the job, more or less (and exhibiting a few bugs in it). A demo is in the attachment.

H.M.

Re: Bells Used Chart

Reply #5 – 2018-08-28 02:23 am

Quote from: hmmueller – 2018-08-27 05:35 pm

One idea is a separate staff that vanishes after the first line; and all the other staves emerge only on the second line (i.e., after a system break on the first staff) - see attachment BellChart-A.

A somewhat simpler solution is to use the top staff as the chart staff in the first line; however, it seems that one has, then, to live with a staff label on the chart line if one needs labels ... see BellChart-B.

Suitable gaps center the chart on the first line. Its notes are muted and, additionally, skipped via 1./2. endings. Bar counting is done with a BarCounter.nw object that starts counting after the chart.

Maybe something better can be developed from these ideas ...

H.M.

Thank you for these ideas. It is a bit convoluted on the screen, isn't? It will get me started, but maybe Mike will have time to clean up the process using his technical wizardry...

Re: Bells Used Chart

Reply #6 – 2018-08-28 07:07 am

Quote from: SEBC – 2018-08-28 02:23 am

... It is a bit convoluted on the screen, isn't it? ... maybe Mike will ... clean up the process using his technical wizardry...

Yes, it is.

Of course, you will hide the "chart staff" (in variants A and C) during editing, and then, they virtually do not disturb writing the music (see attachment).

And of course someone could write a specific plugin for this, very special, case ...

... but NWC has a larger missing feature: It cannot "stitch together" unrelated scores for printing. The problem is most pressing if one wants to print say a cantata, where the first piece is for choir (+ e.g. organ) and the second for a soloist (+ organ): One would like to write them in separate score files, because the voices are different; but if the end of the first piece and the start of the second should be printed together on one page, this is virtually impossible. Maybe printing them as TIFFs (which can contain multiple pages) and then using some tool that "overlays" the graphics ("white is transparent") might help - of course after putting in enough white space so that NWC puts the pieces at the right places on the pages ... has anyone tried that (and knows about tools for this)?

- because then, the bell chart problem could similarly be solved by creating the chart as a completely separate score and then "printing it in" ...

H.M.

Re: Bells Used Chart

Reply #7 – 2018-08-28 07:54 am

If the Bells Used staff is meant to occupy the entire first system, wouldn't it be easy to do with a forced system break, having the bar count start at zero, and excluding all the bar lines on the first system from the bar count?

As for stitching two pieces together, would it work to have four systems?
The first system is the Bells Used staff, and it could either just end at the system break or be collapsed from that point on.
The second system would be the first instrument, with collapse staff used at the beginning and again where the second instrument is introduced. From then on, it could simply be terminated or filled with rests.
The third system would be full of rests and be collapsed until its notes begin. Where the second song starts, use a boundary change to increase the distance between the two songs for the length of its first system.
The fourth system would be the organ, and it would be collapsed from the beginning until it reaches the end of the Bells Used staff, but otherwise would continue from the start of the first song to the end of the second one..
Making the two songs one file screws up the embedded bar count, but there's a tool that I imagine can overcome that (I've never used it).

So:
Staff 1 Bells Used staff xxxxx/system break to end this staff here
Staff 2 Song 1 collapse this staff until the notes start-----------------xxxxxxxxxxxxxx/collapse this staff again---
Staff 3 Song 2 /collapse this staff until the notes start, then do a boundary offset for its first system-----xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Staff 4 Song 1 and 2 for the common instrumentxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Re: Bells Used Chart

Reply #8 – 2018-08-28 09:14 am

Quote from: David Palmquist – 2018-08-28 07:54 am

If the Bells Used staff is meant to occupy the entire first system, wouldn't it be easy to do with a forced system break, etc.etc.etc.

For the bells, this is exactly what my example BellChart-A.nwctxt, attached to the first answer, does - almost to the letter.

Re the song 1/2 suggestion (where I was no longer talking about the bell chart, but about all pieces that consist of multiple movements or the like) - of course, this is possible, and I have done it. But it's sort of a nightmare (you might want to try it with a cantata of 6...8 pieces) - showing/hiding staffs while editing e.g. the 3rd piece, inserting all those rests (or whatever) in voices only present in later movements, jumping to the "beginning of the fourth movement", maybe having multiple segnos and codas etc.etc. - it just does not work nicely, and all that only because you want to print parts of two movements on a single page.

One helpful feature would be if one could assign a staff to multiple groups - then one could have groups "movement 1", "movement 2" etc., with e.g. the organ present in both (or more) such groups. But this is more a crutch than a real solution, I think.

H.M.

Re: Bells Used Chart

Reply #9 – 2018-08-28 12:33 pm

This is a separate question as well but suspect it might have the same type of answer. I’d like to provide an alternate ending on a piece. Separated by space. I haven’t attempted it yet but am thinking about it.

Re: Bells Used Chart

Reply #10 – 2018-08-28 04:38 pm

Quote from: SEBC – 2018-08-28 12:33 pm

This is a separate question as well but suspect it might have the same type of answer. I’d like to provide an alternate ending on a piece. Separated by space. I haven’t attempted it yet but am thinking about it.

This should actually be quite easy, if you aren't concerned about playback. If you do a system break, and immediately add a boundary change to the top staff that has a larger upper margin, this should give you the spacing you need. If the alternate ending is more than one system in length, you can add another boundary change that resets the upper margin to its previous value.

Re: Bells Used Chart

Reply #11 – 2018-08-28 06:14 pm

Quote from: hmmueller – 2018-08-28 07:07 am

Maybe printing them as TIFFs (which can contain multiple pages) and then using some tool that "overlays" the graphics ("white is transparent") might help - of course after putting in enough white space so that NWC puts the pieces at the right places on the pages ... has anyone tried that (and knows about tools for this)?

NWC lets you save a page as an EMF. With IrfanView, you can crop it and combine it with other images with IrfanView's 'Create Panoramic Image ...'
IrfanView also lets you paste a clipboard image into a rectangular selection of its main image. I use this a lot for manipulating scanned music to manage page turns.

Generally, I find that overlaying images is not needed.

Re: Bells Used Chart

Reply #12 – 2018-08-28 06:17 pm

Quote from: Rick G. – 2018-08-28 06:14 pm

... With IrfanView, you can crop it and combine it with other images ...

Thanks, that's a good hint. Next time, I'll try this when I create a multiple-movement piece or need to insert some special staff like that bell usage (no, I don't write for bells - but similar needs sometimes occur).

H.M.

Re: Bells Used Chart

Reply #13 – 2018-08-28 06:41 pm

Quote from: Rick G. – 2018-08-28 06:14 pm

NWC lets you save a page as an EMF. With IrfanView, you can crop it and combine it with other images with IrfanView's 'Create Panoramic Image ...'
IrfanView also lets you paste a clipboard image into a rectangular selection of its main image. I use this a lot for manipulating scanned music to manage page turns.

I don't use IrfanView, but I've been successful at doing much the same thing with Microsoft Word. I've also found that you can edit the inserted EMF "picture", and you can do tweaks on the score, including moving notes or text, or changing selected lyrics to italics. Perhaps IrfanView also allows such edits.

Re: Bells Used Chart

Reply #14 – 2018-08-28 07:37 pm

Quote from: Mike Shawaluk – 2018-08-28 06:41 pm

Perhaps IrfanView also allows such edits.

No, it doesn't.
IrfanView works only on bitmaps. EMF is vectorial, so IrfanView converts it to bitmap before showing it.
You need a vectorial graphic (like "word" (!)) program to modify an EMF.

Re: Bells Used Chart

Reply #15 – 2018-09-08 07:34 pm

I am attempting to use the first method described above but an having some trouble with allignment since I had to take out the bass clef on bells used and add some more notes: from Bb below middle C up to high C (two octaves above middle C). I had just cut and paste the first chart into my score and adapted from there. The result is that the bells used aren't in the middle but at the left margin.

Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.751,Single)
|Boundary|Style:Gap|Width:2000|SystemConnections:N
|User|XText.hmm|Pos:7|Font1:PageText|Text1:"Handbells Used"
|Bar|Style:Transparent
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:b-7
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-6|Opts:Muted
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-5|Opts:Muted
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:b-4|Opts:Muted
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-3|Opts:Muted
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-2|Opts:Muted
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-1|Opts:Muted
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:b0|Opts:Muted
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:1|Opts:Muted
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:b3|Opts:Stem=Down
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:4|Opts:Stem=Down
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:6
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:7|Opts:Stem=Down
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:8|Opts:Stem=Down
|Ending|Endings:1|Visibility:Never
|Boundary|Style:Gap|Width:2000|SystemConnections:N
|Boundary|Style:Collapse
|Bar|SysBreak:Y
|Rest|Dur:Whole
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

I'm not sure how to copy and paste all the staves at once. This is the bells used stave.

Thanks for your help

Re: Bells Used Chart

Reply #16 – 2018-09-09 03:24 am

Re: Bells Used Chart

Reply #17 – 2018-09-22 02:27 am

Re: Bells Used Chart

Reply #18 – 2018-09-22 08:40 am

I can see only a single staff (the chart, I assume). Could you attach your complete score - just click on "selecting them" in the box below the text box where you write your answer.

H.M.

Re: Bells Used Chart

Reply #19 – 2018-09-22 04:03 pm

I just copied and clipped the beginning few measures and the spacing between staves is not the original spacing.
Thanks!

Re: Bells Used Chart

Reply #20 – 2018-09-22 05:47 pm

the three unnecessary segments with rests on the first segment
the useless chart staff from the second system onwards

... which you have to do with "Boundary" items that "collapse" and "forbid collapsing" these parts to finally arrive at:

| Bells chart |

| music staff 1
| music staff 2
| music staff 3

which is, I think, what you want.

That's the only way I can see to get rid of that connecting line ...
... and it's what I showed somewhere above in the BellCharts-B.nwctxt example.

--------

Using David's idea above, you can save one staff (but cannot then give the chart and the top level different labels):

| Bells chart | music staff 1
| rests    | music staff 2
| rests    | music staff 3

Breaking after the chart yields

| Bells chart |
| rests    |
| rests    |

| music staff 1
| music staff 2
| music staff 3

and you only need to get rid (with a collapse-forbid Boundary pair) of the two "rests" segments.

H.M.

Re: Bells Used Chart

Reply #21 – 2018-09-23 01:42 pm

Thanks, I understand the process now, but it really took a long time to set it up. Next time will be faster, unless someone comes up with a user object for me!

Thanks for all your help.

Re: Bells Used Chart

Reply #22 – 2019-11-07 03:54 pm

Well, I'm back again wrestling with "bells used" charts!

Does anyone have any time/inclination/strength to look at the feasibility of an object that might handle this task? I am going to be studying handbell composing in the near future, so I anticipate needing to create these charts regularly. I tried copying and pasting one chart to another piece and the results made me want to run and hide...

Re: Bells Used Chart

Reply #23 – 2019-11-07 04:46 pm

The trouble I am having is that my bass clef stave is not lining up with the others. The first rest is being given four beats instead of three. The other issue is the clefs spacing is wonky -- small at times and not at the beginning of the line.

See the pics attached.

Thanks for your insights into solving this issue.

Re: Bells Used Chart

Reply #24 – 2019-11-07 05:13 pm

You didn't share the score in question, so I can't easily try this, but I suspect that when you have changing time signatures (i.e. going from 30/4 to 3/4), you need to insert a bar line between the time signature changes, so NWC knows how to start counting over again. The whole rests in your bass part are being counted as 4 beats instead of three.
EDIT: I mocked up your score and confirmed my assertion above. Just add a barline immediately before the "Cancel/forbid collapse" marks in staves 2-4.

Re: Bells Used Chart

Reply #25 – 2019-11-07 06:01 pm

Thanks, that definitely fixed things. Bar lines are really important to NWC!

Re: Bells Used Chart

Reply #26 – 2019-11-10 05:16 pm

Earlier in this thread, there was some discussion about using EMF to create an optional ending. How do I save from NWC into that format? I don't see it on the "save as" or export options? I read that it has to do with printing something...

Thanks

Re: Bells Used Chart

Reply #27 – 2019-11-10 05:25 pm

Quote from: SEBC – 2019-11-10 05:16 pm

How do I save from NWC into that format?

Go into Print Preview. Press the MENU key. 'Copy Page ...' is the menu option you want.