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Trill - a question for the music theorists


I'm transcribing and simplifying a part in D major that has two accidentalized notes marked to trill sharp.

The note progression is
A tr
A# tr#
B tr
B# tr#
C#
D
D#
E

Can anyone tell me whether the two sharp trills should be from A# to B#(C)  or to C#, and from B# to C#, D or D#, please?


Re: Trill - a question for the music theorists

Reply #1 –
I'm only guessing, but I think in each case you would be expected to trill a whole step (i.e., two semitones). That would be A# (Bb) to C and B# (C) to D. A trill of anything over a whole step is no longer a trill, but a minor third tremolo; a trill of a half-step would be difficult to justify as a "sharp" trill. Just my 2 cents worth....

Bill

Re: Trill - a question for the music theorists

Reply #2 –
See: A Trilling Experience for some background.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Trill - a question for the music theorists

Reply #3 –
Thanks, Bill and Rick.  I'll go with a whole tone and move on.  If the orchestra director objects, she can always tell the group.

Re: Trill - a question for the music theorists

Reply #4 –
Just my two cents: did you see that you wrote "A# tr#" and not just "A# tr"?
I think this removes every doubt.

Re: Trill - a question for the music theorists

Reply #5 –
Quote from: Flurmy –
?...I think this removes every doubt.

Oh, if only it were so.  I've just written about 100 words trying to explain why I think it's ambiguous, but I gave up and deleted those words. 


Re: Trill - a question for the music theorists

Reply #6 –
Oh well... What can I say? Trust your ears!

Re: Trill - a question for the music theorists

Reply #7 –
Rick - thanks for the pointer to the Tim Davies blog. That was one I hadn't found. I've bookmarked it and expect to return to it often.

Bill

Re: Trill - a question for the music theorists

Reply #8 –
Mr. Davies' second paragraph asks "But if you are in a foreign key or are not using key signatures and you want a whole step, how do you indicate it?" but he answered his question with an illustration of a flattened trill, half a tone.

Back to the confusion - a normal trill is from the trilled note to the next higher note in a diatonic scale based on the prevailing key signature.  It can therefore be either a half tone or a whole tone.  Where it's a half tone but a whole tone is desired, the trill is sharpened.   The confusion is because the trilled notes are not in that diatonic scale, they are accidentals.

I like Mr. Davies' suggestion of writing the target note just above the trilled note to remove the ambiguity.

Re: Trill - a question for the music theorists

Reply #9 –
Quote from: David Palmquist –
I like Mr. Davies' suggestion of writing the target note just above the trilled note to remove the ambiguity.

So do I. It is, in fact, my common practice - but I use a grace note, either before the trilled note (if I want the trill to begin on the higher note of the trilled pair) or after (if I want the trill to begin on the lower note). In either case, the grace note will have an accidental attached to it if appropriate.
 

Re: Trill - a question for the music theorists

Reply #10 –
Quote from: William Ashworth –
I use a grace note
I think that this is more stable:
Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.5,Single)
|Text|Text:"`__----------"|Font:StaffSymbols|Pos:7|Placement:AtNextNote
|Text|Text:"_  (fk)"|Font:StaffCueSymbols|Pos:2|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:1
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
but it does not transpose.
Registered user since 1996