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Topic: Wrong sounds in an orchestral score?? (Read 10439 times) previous topic - next topic

Wrong sounds in an orchestral score??

I´m doing my first orchestral score, which is ment to be played with synthesizer sounds, not real instruments this time.
I made the score adding more and more staffs as my work progressed and I needed more instruments. Because the piece moves around a lot in different keys and meters, I some times copied a number of bars from one existing staff to a newly created - to save time. I notice that the key signatures are places correctly, even if I paste bars from a trebble clef to a bass clef. So that part seems to go smoothly.
Here comes the problem: Some of the staffs sound right when played individually (using shift+f5), but when I play a part of the whole score, I hear instrumental sounds, that should be silent at that moment. For instance: I have rock organ, harp and flute in the band. Some bars should be played by flute and harp, but the organ - for some reason - joins in, although it does NOT have any notes in those bars.
I am not short of RAM, so that´s not the reason.
And unfortunately I have a deadline
I will be greatful for any suggestions?
 

Re: Wrong sounds in an orchestral score??

Reply #1 –
You need to check which channels you have used on which staff. For example, if you have used two different staffs with different instrument patches but with the same channel, you could get the problem you are experiencing.

Rich.

Re: Wrong sounds in an orchestral score??

Reply #2 –
When doing orchestral music, I've found it helpful to:
(I only have the default sounds available - have not progressed to soundfonts)
=========Save the work you've done so far. ================
=========Make a Copy of your work, BEFORE Starting to chop and change=========
=========Work on the copy;========
=========As work progresses, save with sequentially increasing version numbers  eg 01, 02, 03, .... 19, 20, 21 ....========
Ensure that each staff has a meaningful name
(a hodge-podge of names and numbers can easily cause confusion)
Group together staves which use the same instrument.
1. Make all staves visible.
2. Select "Score Review" (Keyboard shortcut is: R)
3. Start from the top staff, sequentially assign Channels to the staves,
    from "1" to "16" (Reserving "10" for percussion sounds.)
If you have more than 16 "voices", you'll have problems, which can be solved, as had been done by the late Tina Billett - it will require careful study to understand how she did it.
4.  If you have a group of staves playing the same instrument, you can assign one the same channel to
     each of these staves,    (provided the dynamics multipoint controllers are identical in the staves.)

See also Rick G.'s reply #10.
5.  To track down which instruments are playing where:
     For each staff, on its own:
         Type "Ctrl+F" (which is the shortcut for "FIND"),
         select "By category"
         and from that select "Instrument patch".
    After the first patch has been found (and corrected if necessary), you can press "F3"
    to keep on looking for further instrument patches on the same staff.
Presumably you'll find some places where a staff should've been muted or some wrong instrument patches.

 

Re: Wrong sounds in an orchestral score??

Reply #3 –
Thanks for both answers, I´ll look into that. But a short question: Are you saying that NWC2 cannot handle more than 16 voices?

Re: Wrong sounds in an orchestral score??

Reply #4 –
Quote from: Stephen 0352 –
But a short question: Are you saying that NWC2 cannot handle more than 16 voices?

No, but if you need more than 16 (15 + percussion) then you have to configure two playback devices in Tools, Options, Midi and then refer to the correct playback device when you set up the staff midi properties (I believe).
Rich.

Re: Wrong sounds in an orchestral score??

Reply #5 –
Quote
Are you saying that NWC2 cannot handle more than 16 voices?

No, it's the MIDI standard that limits each sound module to 16 channels (voices).
If you have more MIDI modules (e.g. the old SoundBlaster had two HW synth) then you can have more groups of 16 channels and you can handle them with NWC.
But don't expect to easily share those scores with others!

Haymo,

Quote
If you have a group of staves playing the same instrument, you can assign one channel to each of these staves, (provided the dynamics are identical in the staves.)

I disagree on your note about the dynamics. Each staff can have its own dynamic.
What must be identical are the multipoint controllers: pan, volume, pitch bending, expression...

Re: Wrong sounds in an orchestral score??

Reply #6 –
Ok, for the time being, I´ll stick to 16 channels and make that work.
Question: When I right-click on a staff, I get a choice under "MIDI Control" called "Instrumental change". Does that give me the possibility of changing the instrument-sound in one staff? Could be useful, if I only need one blow of a horn in the first bar, and some harp arpeggios in the end?

Re: Wrong sounds in an orchestral score??

Reply #7 –
Yes it does.  But it's quicker to use the I key to insert an instrument patch.  You can change instruments on a staff as many times as you like.
Just mae sure that the channel is unique to the staff or that the instuments are compatible if you have the same channel on multiple staves.
Rich.

Re: Wrong sounds in an orchestral score??

Reply #8 –
Well, this is surely good news. I will continue with improved confidence. Thanks a lot!

Re: Wrong sounds in an orchestral score??

Reply #9 –
   It may be helpful to see how others have handled this problem, especially when the "other" is the great Tina Billett.

   See how she coped with Mahler's "Titan" Symphony -

   http-nwc-scriptorium-dot-org/classm-dot-html#Mahler

   MusicJohn, 16/Apr/13

Re: Wrong sounds in an orchestral score??

Reply #10 –
MIDI will allow playback of multiple patches on one channel, but only one patch can produce a 'note on' at any one instant:
Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.5,Single)
|Instrument|Name:"Flute"|Patch:73|Trans:0|DynVel:10,30,45,60,75,92,108,127|Pos:15
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:5^
|Instrument|Name:"Oboe"|Patch:68|Trans:0|DynVel:10,30,45,60,75,92,108,127|Pos:11
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:3^
|Instrument|Name:"Violin"|Patch:40|Trans:0|DynVel:10,30,45,60,75,92,108,127|Pos:8
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:1^
|Instrument|Name:"French Horn"|Patch:60|Trans:0|DynVel:10,30,45,60,75,92,108,127|Pos:-6
|Chord|Dur:Whole|Pos:-2,1,3,5
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
with NWC, the half notes in the example can be shortened to as little as a 64th triplet.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Wrong sounds in an orchestral score??

Reply #11 –
Some further remarks which may (or may not) apply to your problem:
1. It appears as if you had not checked EACH staff for correct sound:
Marking a note to start a tie, with "/",
without supplying the following note to which the tie should be connected,
(when a slur, marked with ";" was intended)
is SURE to give wrong sounds.

2. Staves which are intended ONLY for printing, had best be muted,
    with the PLAYING staves hidden from view.

Re: Wrong sounds in an orchestral score??

Reply #12 –

Quote from: Rick G. –
MIDI will allow playback of multiple patches on one channel, but only one patch can produce a 'note on' at any one instant.
Thank you Rick, this has been totally new to me.

Re: Wrong sounds in an orchestral score??

Reply #13 –
Hello all!
Let me get this right:
I organize 16 chairs on the stage (my score) and at any given moment there can only be one musician in each chair. However - from time to time you may see that some of the musicians will leave their chair and another instrumentalist will take their place. And behind some of chairs you may see additional chairs, i.e. 3 violins instead of only one. But the three violin chairs will then have the same number (channel).
And of course you can´t have one musician trying to finish a long note, while another attempts to start playing something on the same chair.
In this way I can have say 30 or more instrumental sounds in my piece, correct?
The sound level I guess will have to be fixed for each channel, but then I can use dynamics like pp og FF a.s.o. - ?
And this is no problem when proceeding to MIDI and ultimately converting to mp3?
(I´m doing a piece of film music for a short movie intented for YouTube.)

Re: Wrong sounds in an orchestral score??

Reply #14 –
Stephen:
One thing you haven't told us is the sound device you are using.
It could be possible that your sound device has two synthesisers like the Creative X-Fi or Audigy.
If that is the case you can have 16 channels per synth port without conflict.

Re: Wrong sounds in an orchestral score??

Reply #15 –
Quote from: Stephen 0352 –
And of course you can´t have one musician trying to finish a long note, while another attempts to start playing something on the same chair.
In MIDI, and in NWC, you can. This is seldom done, but it does work.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Wrong sounds in an orchestral score??

Reply #17 –
Quote from: Haymo –
sequentially assign Channels to the staves, from "1" to "16" (Reserving "10" for percussion sounds.)

Why "10" for percussion? Does it only work on that channel? I had timpani sounding in one staff, when I changed the channel to 10, I don´t hear the timpani any longer, but a regular set of drums in stead  -?

Re: Wrong sounds in an orchestral score??

Reply #18 –
The channel 10 is the standard channel for the percussion set.

A percussion set is a patch that has a different (percussive) instrument for each note.
Timpani is a kind of percussive instrument in which the pitch of each note is well defined, so it can not be a percussion set but a standard voice patch (so normally it can't be assigned to channel 10).

This is the basis.
Then there are the GM2 and XG extensions, in which you can say that, for example, channel 10 and channel 16 are both percussion set, or that channel 10 is a regular voice channel, but that's not feasible in NWC.

Re: Wrong sounds in an orchestral score??

Reply #19 –
Quote
The sound level I guess will have to be fixed for each channel, but then I can use dynamics like pp og FF a.s.o. - ?

Yes, you can use dynamics at wish, even if more staves are playing at the same moment on the same channel since each single note message has its own "strength" (i.e. velocity).

You can also change the multipoint controllers (volume, modulation, pitch bending...) whenever you want, but, since they work on the whole channel, their function is applied to all the notes (and staves) that use that channel.
Not such a great limitation, usually.
Old keyboards did some great jobs with only 5 or 6 patches at once using these tricks.

Re: Wrong sounds in an orchestral score??

Reply #20 –
Quote from: Flurmy –
A percussion set is a patch that has a different (percussive) instrument for each note.
Timpani is a kind of percussive instrument in which the pitch of each note is well defined, so it can not be a percussion set but a standard voice patch (so normally it can't be assigned to channel 10).
Obvious, of course! Thanks!

Re: Wrong sounds in an orchestral score??

Reply #21 –
You might want to look at an existing score to see how it's done.  Try Beethoven's 6th, movements 3,4,5 from scriptorium and press R to review how the instruments and channels are assigned.
Since 1998

Re: Wrong sounds in an orchestral score??

Reply #22 –
Quote from: Warren Porter –
You might want to look at an existing score to see how it's done.  Try Beethoven's 6th.....

Thank you, I think I´m getting the picture now. My score sounds right after some corrections. Only my staffs are not in numerical order, since the whole thing developed as I worked. Apart from the aspect of order and systematic discipline, - is it a probleme that the staffs are not 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc. from top?

Re: Wrong sounds in an orchestral score??

Reply #24 –
Quote from: Barry Graham –
One thing you haven't told us is the sound device you are using.
It could be possible that your sound device has two synthesisers like the Creative X-Fi or Audigy.
If that is the case you can have 16 channels per synth port without conflict.
Sorry, I didn´t answer this important question sufficiently. The playback device I use is Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth. And I have to stick to that for the moment due to deadline. But having made MIDI and mp3 testfiles yesterday -trying different software like Audacity, Synthfont, GarageBand (Mac) and Q-Base - made me aware of two things:
1) I might get a better result using software like Q-Base (my son use it) in the first place (but I´d still like to explore the possibilities of NWC2). And -
2) The sound picture I have in my piece in NWC2 may - as I hear it - change in the conversion, when I use Synthfont to translate the MIDI-file (exported from NWC2) into a mp3 - which, as earlier mentioned, is what I have to deliver to the guy who´s making the film in IMovie (MAC).

At this moment I´m busy trying ot get the piece to sound as I want it to. Thanks to your help I´m getting on well.  
 

Re: Wrong sounds in an orchestral score??

Reply #25 –
A last remark here and thanks for your help:
Using the 16 channels available in the way described earlier in this post, I have now almost 30 different instruments playing in my piece without problems.
And converting to MIDI and from there to mp3 was also no problem with Synthfont. The sound picture in the mp3 is identical to my NWC2 file.
Great!