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Topic: Bug -- slur over hidden note (Read 10608 times) previous topic - next topic

Bug -- slur over hidden note

I think I found a bug. When a slur spans a hidden note at the beginning of a measure, and that measure begins on a new line, the slur disappears.
Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.5,Single)
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0
|Bar
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0
|Bar
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0
|Bar
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0
|Bar
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0
|Bar
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0
|Bar
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0
|Bar|SysBreak:Y
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Re: Bug -- slur over hidden note

Reply #1 –
I don't know for sure, but I suspect NWC treats a slur broken by a system break as if it stops and starts at the break. That means the slur at the beginning of the second system starts from an invisible note, and slurs (and ties) take their attributes from the note they begin on. This is a choice, not a bug, and (although this could be argued) I think it's the correct choice. Perhaps someday the visibility attribute of slurs will be optional, but since they're drawn dynamically rather than being placed as predrawn symbols like most of the rest of the score, I wouldn't hold my breath. Is there a reason you can't use a headless, stemless note instead of an invisible one?

Re: Bug -- slur over hidden note

Reply #2 –
Just curiosity:
Where would one use / need  a construct like that?

Re: Bug -- slur over hidden note

Reply #3 –
Quote from: fathafluff –
I think I found a bug.
An old one.

Quote from: William Ashworth –
Is there a reason you can't use a headless, stemless note instead of an invisible one?
That's what I do. I also test every slur that crosses a bar for its start and end if the system breaks there. The new ToolBar Icon 'Fast Insert: System Break' is useful for this.

Quote from: Haymo –
Where would one use / need  a construct like that?
It is something to try on the way to getting slurs to look like slurs. I would use it if it worked.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Bug -- slur over hidden note

Reply #4 –
For years, I have used Noteworthy as a means to study notes, and to help fellow chorus members to get the notes into their heads.
Now I have this daunting task to enter 90 score fragments (1 or 2 systems each) into Noteworthy. All these are going to be incorporated in a book.

I have found the slur-problem annoying, so far, but now it is a real pain. For many of the fragments, fixing the slurs is as much work as entering the whole fragment in Noteworthy.
The long standing wish (Do Something About The Slurs!) is something I now wholeheartedly echo.

Solutions have been suggested, and I hope one will be implemented... (An extra property on every note? Yeeeeah!)

Re: Bug -- slur over hidden note

Reply #5 –
Quote from: Rob den Heijer –
I have this daunting task to enter 90 score fragments
Since they are fragments, there should be no rights issues. If you post your problems to the forum, I'll put proper slurs on them.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Bug -- slur over hidden note

Reply #6 –
That is very kind of you. Most problems I can solve by following the suggestions as given by fellow Noteworthians.
I am now in the process of entering these fragments; where I run into serious trouble, I will ask for your help. Thanks very much!

Re: Bug -- slur over hidden note

Reply #7 –
Bringing this back to the original report, if the first note after a system break is the recipient of a slur, and it it hidden, ALL continued slurs are lost. I still call this a bug. Measure 7 has a "slur out" but measure 8 does not have a "slur in."

Re: Bug -- slur over hidden note

Reply #8 –
Quote from: fathafluff –
I still call this a bug.
I agree. I see no use for a slur whose visible endpoint moves depending on automatic system breaks.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Bug -- slur over hidden note

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Rob den Heijer –
Lilypond has relatively flat slurs. Can Noteworthy emulate this?
IMO, start and end of slurs is more of the problem in your example than flatness.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Bug -- slur over hidden note

Reply #11 –
NWC lopsided slurs seem to arise because the slurs don't start and end at a vertical position that allows the curve to clear high points - an example I had yesterday was an ending note or maybe the second last note in the upper leger lines (stem down) with an accidental flat.  Our slur arches over it, making the curve assymetrical (what I've previously called "umm, artistic").

I think the choral image in Rob's Lilypond example shows a nice way to overcome that - the slurs start and end at a higher point than the notehead.

If the start and end points were made to act like the Lilypond examples, the flatness and the assymetry problems would probably(?) be resolved. 

Re: Bug -- slur over hidden note

Reply #12 –
This is why many of us over the years have asked for "handles" on the ends of slurs (and in the middle, too, but the ends are more important). If we had those, we could adjust the endpoints to fit each situation - as is done in most printed music - rather than have them always at either the notehead or the opposite end of the stem.

Re: Bug -- slur over hidden note

Reply #13 –
I agree with you, Bill.  We saw something like that in a very early Version 2 betatest, but it never went anywhere.  We could only work with it on the NWC desktop (the window you see when no file is open); for some reason we weren't asked to test it with a song file.  I imagine making it work was problematic.  Still, I'd love to have it.



Re: Bug -- slur over hidden note

Reply #14 –
Quote from: Rick G. –
IMO, start and end of slurs is more of the problem in your example than flatness.
That is true, but at least we can overcome that with the usual bag of tricks.

Re: Bug -- slur over hidden note

Reply #15 –
Rob,
my suggestion to improve 
music where you have lyrics and/or 2 voices on a staff,
is to reduce (just about) all note stems to 6, some even to 5 (instead of the default 7).
That will not cure your problem,
but may go some way in improving what the music looks like in NWC.

Re: Bug -- slur over hidden note

Reply #16 –
Quote from: Rob den Heijer –
That is true, but at least we can overcome that with the usual bag of tricks.
Here's the result of applying my "usual bag of tricks." I'll put it up against LilyPond for clarity without reservations. You get a bit more art with LilyPond, but I'm not looking for art.

Flatter slurs might have their uses, but they are a poor substitute for slurs that start and end at the right place. It would help to have even finer control than what I am able to show here.
Registered user since 1996
 

Re: Bug -- slur over hidden note

Reply #17 –
You are right (and you might even respond "Hmm, get used to it" with good reason); the reason I would have for somewhat flatter curves is: when you have 2 or 3 lyric lines, the slurs can get in the way. But getting them to start and end at the proper place is more important. Quite so.