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Topic: Converting WAV to NWC (Read 24892 times) previous topic - next topic

Converting WAV to NWC

I know I've searched on this topic before, but came up short.

For the church orchestra we have a CD with our Christmas music on it.  Eventually (Sept/Oct) we'll be given the sheet music, but inevitably it doesn't have any of the 'improved' solos on it.

There's a 12 second/4 measure trombone solo that I'd like to get the notes and rhythym.

I've tried some freeware/shareware programs for converting, but the one's I've tried didn't work or were so 'crippled' that I couldn't use them.

Q1. What is the most cost-effective way to convert WAV to NWC?
Q2. If you've got the capability/software, would you do this for me?  ;)

Honestly, I'd like to be able to do it myself, so that would be my first choice.

Thanks,
Spence

Re: Converting WAV to NWC

Reply #1 –
If you convert from wav to mp3 (wav is too large) and send it on, maybe I can help. Just tell me what part you want to figure out the notes for and I'll see what I can do. And are we talking a transposing instrument?
You can't post an mp3 on this forum so send it to: Pisteuomusic@yahoo.com. I can't promise anyting but I'll give it a shot. If it's only a portion of the song it should be doable.

Re: Converting WAV to NWC

Reply #2 –
Thanks fitzclan!

I sent the MP3 to you.

I'd still like to know what software to use to be able to do it myself.

Re: Converting WAV to NWC

Reply #3 –
G'day Spence602,

Quote from: spence602 –
<snip>

I'd still like to know what software to use to be able to do it myself.

The only software that works sits between your ears...  Extracting notation from a music file like a wav or mp3 has proven to be exceptionally difficult.  Even for a single voice.  Then you add multiple voices and you can pretty much forget it.

The problem lies in the spectra of the sounds.  E.G. a human voice singing a note has overtones (harmonics) up the kazoo.  It is not a simple sine wave signal.  It's the other bits around the fundamental that causes all the problems.

If you have access to a spectrum analyzer you can see this quite clearly.  What is most interesting is that many of the harmonics end up having amplitudes as great or even greater than the fundamental.

To add even more difficulties, a well trained human voice is about as pure as you'll get without electronic production.  When you consider the sounds of, say, a sax or a trombone, or a violin - the list goes on.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but there isn't software to do it successfully yet.  Or at least, not that I've seen.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Converting WAV to NWC

Reply #4 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
... a human voice singing a note has overtones (harmonics) up the kazoo. 
Did you mean: like a kazoo?

Can you imagine the fit the RIAA would throw if you could extract a score from a wav file?
Registered user since 1996

Re: Converting WAV to NWC

Reply #5 –
Quote
Did you mean: like a kazoo?

No, I don't think that's what Lawrie meant.  Call it a hunch.  (grin)

Re: Converting WAV to NWC

Reply #6 –
Hey Spence,
I got the bit you sent. You must have some church orchestra if you can play that kind of stuff. Nice. I think I must have misunderstood your initial request.  I was going to write the solo with NWC as I can usually pick out the notes with out too much problem, but you say in your e-mail that you have already done that.  I believe Lawrie is right about there not being software capable of doing that for you. Especially a jazz piece like that. There is an awful lot going on besides the "solo" so that no software would be able to single out the trombone part or even distinguish between it and the other horns playing simultaneously.

Re: Converting WAV to NWC

Reply #7 –
What's the name of the piece, and who played on the recording?

Re: Converting WAV to NWC

Reply #8 –
G'day Rick,

Quote from: Rick G. –
Did you mean: like a kazoo?


Nope, David's right...  Let's just say the "kazoo" I'm thinking of has a more "fundamental" purpose <gdr>
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Converting WAV to NWC

Reply #9 –
Quote from: David Palmquist –
What's the name of the piece, and who played on the recording?

The song's called "Children, go where I send thee".  I don't know the Artist/group, arranger, composer, or anything else (yet).  I've got most of the notes and can play the rhythym so-so, but putting the combination in NWC (and getting it to sound the same) is painful.

That's why I was looking to reverse-engineer the cut.

Re: Converting WAV to NWC

Reply #10 –
If it helps, you can get chords for it here

http://members.cox.net/billandleann/GO.HTM

I also found a cool MP3 of it online, but it was all vocal, no brass.

A couple of sites described it as a Negro spiritual, others said Anonymous.

Re: Converting WAV to NWC

Reply #11 –
Quote from: fitzclan –
You must have some church orchestra if you can play that kind of stuff. Nice.

We usually get some 'challenging' pieces every few weeks.  It's a lot better than playing hymns 3x in a row!  We've got a flute player who is a principle in the Houston Symphony, 4 band directors, high school kids who can blow all day long, and the rest of us are just hacks.

Most of the music we're playing now is arranged by a either Dan Galbraith or [another guy whose name I can't think of right now].  Sometimes 4 or 5 key changes in a piece - 4 to 6# is the most common (easier for the strings and guitars I assume).  Makes me appreciate my F trigger and all those alternate positions...

Re: Converting WAV to NWC

Reply #12 –
G'day Spence,
ahh, another true musician - you know all those other instruments are just "window dressing" for us trombones don't you? (says Lawrie beating a hasty retreat  :)

[move]<Image Link>[/move]
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Converting WAV to NWC

Reply #14 –
Well, here goes... I have a poor ear, and this clip is just intended to see if I've come close to the rhythm in the first two measures. 

Set up three new staffs, one for trombone, one for drums, and one for tempo.

The time signature is clearly 4/4 and the tempo is about q=180, a nice medium swing tempo.  To get the swing feel,you need to use these tempo markings for 8 bars.

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Bar|Style:LocalRepeatOpen
|Tempo|Tempo:135|Pos:12
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Tempo|Tempo:270|Pos:5
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Tempo|Tempo:135|Pos:12
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Tempo|Tempo:270|Pos:5
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Tempo|Tempo:135|Pos:12
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Tempo|Tempo:270|Pos:5
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Tempo|Tempo:135|Pos:12
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Tempo|Tempo:270|Pos:5
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Bar|Style:LocalRepeatClose|Repeat:8
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Next, set the percussion clef to channel 10, and use Acoustic Grand Piano as the instrument.  Copy this onto it:
 
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Percussion
|Bar|Style:LocalRepeatOpen
|Chord|Dur:8th,Accent|Pos:1,5x|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-5,-3,0
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:6x|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:6x|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:6x|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:5x|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-3
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:6x|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:6x|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:6x|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar|Style:LocalRepeatClose|Repeat:8
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Your trombone staff needs to start with bass clef, and a time signature of 4/4.  The rhythm of the first two bars is something like this:

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Bass
|Key|Signature:Bb,Eb
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur,Accent|Pos:6
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:8
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Note|Dur:8th,Accent|Pos:7
|Rest|Dur:8th,Accent
|Note|Dur:8th,Accent|Pos:b7
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:6^
|Note|Dur:8th,Staccato|Pos:6
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:4|Opts:Stem=Down
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:6|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th,Slur|Pos:7|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th,Accent|Pos:6|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

DISCLAIMER #1  - I am not saying I have the rhythm right, just that this is the sort of rhythm you're encountering.  The variation in notes just is to help with the feel.  No guarantee of accurate pitch.

BIG DISCLAIMER #2:  I'm embarassed that I'm throwing notes in without checking the pitches or the key signature.  My intention is only to tackle the rhythm first, the notes themselves are for another day.  It's too late at night for me to work at it, and for me, it would be a lot of work.

It really helped to play these two bars back in a continuous loop.  Creative Wave Studio and Amazing Slowdowner will do that, and the latter has the advantage of allowing the music to be slowed without losing pitch. 
 

Re: Converting WAV to NWC

Reply #15 –
I guess I'll have to get NWC2 this evening and give it a try.

Thanks David!

Re: Converting WAV to NWC

Reply #16 –
What is "the RIAA?"

and WOW!  Lawrie "marqueed" a GIF!
Cool!

Re: Converting WAV to NWC

Reply #17 –
Hi, KAT -

RIAA = Recording Industry Association of America

You can check them out here http://www.riaa.com/default.asp

- John
John

Re: Converting WAV to NWC

Reply #18 –
Second attempt.

Sorry about the NWC2 assumption, Spence - try the image I'm attaching.  If it opens, you can just type the bars into version 1.  If it's not right with this message, look further down the page.

Re: Converting WAV to NWC

Reply #19 –
Getting back to the original focus of the request - converting wav to nwc...

If I can open a MIDI in NWC, and I start out with a WAV or MP3, then all that I (should) need is a program to convert it from WAV/MP3 to MIDI.  Granted I'll lose a little (or maybe a lot) in the double translation, but it's a start...

If you look at all the "MP3 or WAV converters to MIDI" on the internet, I've tried the downloadable versions of almost all of these.  Most of them claim to be able to save in MIDI format - I just don't want to shell out the cash and get a crappy application.


Does anyone have one of these "WAV/MP3 to MIDI" converters and would care to comment on its usefullnes/quality?

Re: Converting WAV to NWC

Reply #20 –
G'day Spence,
don't waste your money mate.  My comments in https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=5673.msg36914#msg36914 stand.  Wav/mp3 to any "notation" format (including MIDI) ain't gonna happen.

The information in the wav/mp3 file is a single, complex waveform.  There is no individual track/instrument information available to be extracted.  Any claims by software developers to the contrary is, IMHO, just "snake oil".

The only possible exception to this might be for a single "voice" recording, but even then I doubt it would be much good.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Converting WAV to NWC

Reply #21 –
Quote from: spence602 –
I know I've searched on this topic before, but came up short.
I submit that if the application you seek existed, you would not have "come up short."

Registered user since 1996

Re: Converting WAV to NWC

Reply #22 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
The only software that works sits between your ears...

I tried the 'old' software (between my ears) and came up with this...

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Bass
|Tempo|Tempo:85|Pos:8
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Note|Dur:16th,Tenuto|Pos:13
|Rest|Dur:16th
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:#13
|Rest|Dur:16th
|Note|Dur:16th,Tenuto|Pos:b12|Opts:Stem=Down
|Rest|Dur:16th
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:11
|Rest|Dur:16th
|Note|Dur:4th,Tenuto,Slur|Pos:b11
|Bar
|Note|Dur:32nd,Grace,Staccato|Pos:9|Opts:Stem=Down
|Note|Dur:16th,Tenuto|Pos:10|Opts:Stem=Down
|Note|Dur:16th,Staccato|Pos:9|Opts:Stem=Down
|Note|Dur:16th,Tenuto|Pos:b8|Opts:Stem=Down
|Note|Dur:16th,Staccato|Pos:9|Opts:Stem=Down
|Note|Dur:8th,Dotted|Pos:b5|Opts:Stem=Down
|Note|Dur:16th,Dotted,Staccato|Pos:#6|Opts:Stem=Down
|Note|Dur:8th,Tenuto|Pos:b5|Opts:Stem=Down
|Note|Dur:16th,Dotted,Staccato|Pos:6|Opts:Stem=Down
|Note|Dur:8th,Dotted,Tenuto|Pos:b5
|Rest|Dur:16th
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Note|Dur:16th,Dotted,Tenuto|Pos:7
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:7
|Note|Dur:16th,Dotted,Tenuto|Pos:#6
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:#6
|Note|Dur:16th,Dotted,Tenuto|Pos:n6
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:n6
|Note|Dur:16th,Dotted,Tenuto|Pos:b5
|Note|Dur:32nd,Tenuto|Pos:b5
|Note|Dur:16th,Dotted,Tenuto|Pos:6
|Note|Dur:32nd,Tenuto|Pos:#6|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:b5|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:32nd,Tenuto|Pos:#6|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:b5|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:32nd,Tenuto|Pos:#6|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:b5|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:8th,Dotted|Pos:7
|Rest|Dur:16th
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:9
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:b11
|Note|Dur:4th,Tenuto|Pos:b12
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End


It's not exactly right, but it's closer...

Thanks everyone!

Re: Converting WAV to NWC

Reply #23 –
Hi Spence,

The major difference in your method over mine is that you're notating the prase all in 4 bars, at half tempo but with all the notes and rests only half the length they should be.  To me, the recording is clearly an 8 bar phrase with a 4/4 feel, not cut time, and a tempo of 170 would be about right, perhaps a little faster, but I don't have a tap-metronome handy to check against the recording.

You're probably way more accurate than I am both in the rhythm and the notes (recall my disclaimer).  Some problems you'll find with your method are

  • -counting in, at q=85, is a pain
  • -in jazz charts, sixteenth and thirtysecond note combinations are not terribly common. 
  • -your first bar will be easier to read if you beam the notes by beat - you can beam over rests in NWC2
  • -those dotted 8th, dotted 16th combinations in bar two have got to go - too hard to read -  syncopation needs to be easy to read and you should always clearly show where the beat lies in every bar.
  • -it's tricky getting the playback right but when notation does that, the printed part will be ugly and hard to read.  "Legit" players may be comfortable with sixteenth notes and rests, but jazz players are more used to reading fewer notes -they play the swing rhythm naturally, without having to see it.
  • -the 32nd notes at the end of bar three would normally just be written as a half note with a trill sign.  You might be better off putting your part as written onto a hidden staff, and have another, muted, staff for printing that has easier to read notation

Try doubling your tempo and doubling all the note and rest values (just highlight all the notes and rests at once, and press the plus sign).  You'll get the same playback but the music will be easier to read.

Re: Converting WAV to NWC

Reply #24 –
Quote
Try doubling your tempo and doubling all the note and rest values (just highlight all the notes and rests at once, and press the plus sign).
Thanks David. I never knew that! Is that new in NWC2?

Re: Converting WAV to NWC

Reply #25 –
Groups of selected notes can have duration doubled or halved in the same manner using the latest NWC Version 1.

Re: Converting WAV to NWC

Reply #26 –
The best way to convert a WAV file to a score is with your ears.

A great aid to transcription is "Amazing Slowdowner" from Roni Music www.ronimusic.com.
It can use a wave, mp3, WMA file or directly from a track on CD in realtime.
The software can change pitch, slow down and loop sections for aural transcription.
It even has an equaliser to isolate high and low voices.

Another useful tool is:-
Score Extractor www.scoreextractor.com
Limited to short sections of a wave file it produces a bitmap of the frequencies.
The user can then mark the obvious notes in the score with an on-screen pencil then convert the notes to a MIDI file. It is only helpful with harmonies not rhythm.
It is most useful in extracting the occasional complex chord.
There is an early version on the site that is free.

Re: Converting WAV to NWC

Reply #27 –
Holy Smokes, Barry!  Score Extractor looks really good.  I just tried it on four bars of quiet music in a wav file, and I was able to create a midi that had notes reasonably close in pitch to the recording.  Importing to NWC2 has the usual midi import things to fix, but this certainly improves upon a tin ear.

I'm going to play with it a bit more before deciding if I need it, but it sure is tempting, considering it's so cheap.  It's just about as easy to use as NWC, too.  Almost no learning curve.

Thank you very much.

ps I got a system instability error message when importing it to NWC2, but call it a hunch it was likely because I was multitasking with my Email program, GoogleEarth, ScoreExtractor, NWC2, four or five webpages, my webpage editor, and a couple of other things, as well as writing to this forum.

Re: Converting WAV to NWC

Reply #29 –
G'day Barry,
what a great link!  Lotsa good stuff there.

Thanks mate.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.