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Topic: chord with triplets (Read 10675 times) previous topic - next topic

chord with triplets

Hi !

Is there a way to write a chord that one of the notes belongs to a triplet, and the other one is not ?
and what about a triplet toogether with a pause ?

thanks

Re: chord with triplets

Reply #1 –
ori itai:  Is there a way to write a chord that one of the notes belongs to a triplet, and the other one is not ?
and what about a triplet toogether with a pause ?

Yes.  You can always use layering to achieve both these tasks, and many others.  Check elsewhere in this forum, help etc for details on this.

In some cases, you can use the same method as creating chords.  For example, you can have a crotchet triplet (quarter note for those who prefer numbers to names) with a minim (half note).  You enter the crotchets first, and make them a triplet.  You then enter the minim as a chord note on the first crotchet (using control-enter).  I suspect the method only works when the non-triplet note is the same length as the whole triplet, or longer.  I couldn't produce anything reasonable for any other option.

For the rests and triplets, the same limitations as for rests and chords apply - you can't have a short note with a long rest.  You can put shorter rests with longer triplet notes but the appearance is not very good.  Layering can do what you need much better.

Re: chord with triplets

Reply #2 –
OK !

Let me be more specific :

two 8ths from above and three triples-8ths
beneath them - in parallel.

or maybe :

one 8th pause followed by a one 8th note -
and 3 triplet-8ths beneath them.

I know there is the layerring method.
I can also just add a second Staff ...
but I want to figure out -
maybe there is a way or something that I'm not doing rigth.

thanks

p.s.

( If someone wonders, I need it for edditing Rachmaninoffs' sonata for cello and piano, 3rd movement ... )

Re: chord with triplets

Reply #3 –
To get what you are asking for with good visual representation, you MUST use layering.  Noteworthy doesn't allow beaming of parallel "up" and "down" notes on a single staff.  It's only if your music never needs two different beams at the same time that you can get away with a single staff.

With the "up" notes (the two quavers or 8ths) on one staff, and the "down" triplet quavers on another, and the upper staff layered with the next, you should get a pleasing result.  If there are accidentals or semitones, you might need to adjust the horizontal spacing, which is done in the note properties.

If you are having a rest instead of a note where you have layered notes, you might need to move the rest vertically.  This is done in exactly the same way as changing the pitch of a note: shift-arrow over the note to select it, then shift-control-up/down arrow to move it.

If you don't care how the notes look (if you care only about the sound), you could alter the time signature to compound metre (eg 12/8 instead of 4/4), alter the tempo so the beat is dotted crotchet rather than crotchet (dotted quarter rather than quarter), treat the "down" quavers as ordinary quavers, and the "up" quavers as a duplet - which is easily faked in compound time as two dotted quavers.

Layering is still a whole lot easier - although, if you don't care about the apperance, simply add a second staff!

Re: chord with triplets

Reply #4 –
Hi, Ewan!

you have written :]

"Noteworthy doesn't allow beaming of parallel "up" and "down" notes on a single staff. It's only if your music never needs two different beams at the same time that you can get away with a single staff."

If you ment what I think you di - This is not true.
you can achieve that by Shift-up and shift-down the beams of the different parallel notes.
Noteworthy allows that.
It's only with Triplets ( and some pause cases) that I encounter problems.

ori

Re: chord with triplets

Reply #5 –
Either you have found a hidden feature, or you have indeed misunderstood me.

If you have two quavers (eighth notes) beamed, with stems up, you can then add another quaver to each of them (on the same staff) as part of a chord, with stems down.  But you can not have these stem-down quavers beamed as well.  Alternatively, you can have the down-stem quavers beamed, but not the up-stem quavers.  The up-stem quavers and the down-stem quavers are notes in PARALLEL.

If you have the two stem-up beamed quavers FOLLOWED by two stem-down quavers, both pairs of quavers can be beamed, and the stems can remain in the correct direction.  These notes are SERIAL, not parallel.

Unless there IS a hidden feature, the only way to get beamed notes in parallel to appear to be on the same staff, is to use layering.  Triplet quavers are beamed notes (usually), and in this respect are no different from any other beamed notes.

Cheers,
Ewan

Re: chord with triplets

Reply #6 –
as i have mentioned before :
i am not a native english speaker,
hense the use of words like quavers
is not very appreciated ...

you've written :
"But you can not have these stem-down quavers beamed as well".

ok, I checked - this is true.
but, why would i care about that ?

I don't think you are aware to the fact that you can write IN PARALLEL notes of DIFFERENT length ...
like a half (stem-up) and bellow IN PARALLEL a quarter (stem down).

and this was in fact the subject of my question.

my problem begins when one of those notes belongs to a Triplet

Re: chord with triplets

Reply #7 –
ori itai (Reply 6):  you've written :
"But you can not have these stem-down quavers beamed as well".  ok, I checked - this is true.  but, why would i care about that ?  I don't think you are aware to the fact that you can write IN PARALLEL notes of DIFFERENT length ... like a half (stem-up) and bellow IN PARALLEL a quarter (stem down).  and this was in fact the subject of my question.  my problem begins when one of those notes belongs to a Triplet

I do apologise for misunderstanding you.  I was dealing specifically with:

ori itai (Reply 2):  Let me be more specific : two 8ths from above and three triples-8ths beneath them - in parallel.

I am very much aware that you can have notes of different lengths in parallel.  See Reply 1.  There I describe a method for having a triplet on the same staff as another note - in parallel - so long as the note is at least the same length as the complete triplet.  I also point out that if appearance matters, you can not have a triplet in parallel with two or more notes that are each shorter that the complete triplet - on the same staff.  You must use layering.  If you do use layering, you CAN have a triplet appearing to be in parallel with other notes.

ori itai (Reply 6):  i am not a native english speaker, hense the use of words like quavers is not very appreciated ...

Again, I apologise.  For me, and millions of others, words like "quaver" are perfectly good English, and are also the words we use every day.  "Half note", "quarter note" and "eighth note" are almost as foreign to me as "blanche", "noir" and "croche".  I still need to translate them into "minim", "crotchet" and "quaver" to understand what they mean.

You might not realise there are two major dialect groups in English language - the "British" group (including most of the English dialects of the United Kingdom, Australian, New Zealand, India and South Africa) and the "American" group, including most of the English dialects of the United States, and presumably Canada.  I would suggest that no single dialect belongs to solely to one of the two groups.  Living with varied English is something we all have to deal with.  There is bound to be loads of information about this on the internet.

You might care to note that the first time I used a "British" name for a note length, I also included the "American" name, simply because I know many readers are "American" speaking.  I would consider it very polite if "American" speakers were to include "British" versions, rather than assuming everyone spoke "American".  I do not consider it to be polite to be castigated for using English correctly, and providing alternatives for another major dialect.

Re: chord with triplets

Reply #8 –
Weighing in from Canada here.  We try to very hard to maintain our cultural identity by retaining British spellings and date forms (it is now 5/12/03 here, but 12/5/03 in the US). It is difficult to do so when we are inundated with American reading materials, and the great, all powerful Microsoft doesn't encourage language preferences.

Unfortunately, we were never taught minims, crotchets, etc. when I took music lessons 40 years ago.  I did hear about them, but they were just touched on in my older sister's music, and all she told me about was a neat word:

"hemidemisemiquaver"

That was scary enough without having to know a crotchet - which sounds to me like the casual name of an irritable old man.

Ewan, I as a Canadian reader truly appreciated you writing:
"crotchet triplet (quarter note...)" and "minim (half note)."  The English (as in England) expressions simply are not in common use in Canada, and your explanation is very helpful.

I wish I could recripocate but I don't have the language to do so when I'm talking about many note values.  Maybe one day...

Re: chord with triplets

Reply #9 –
Ok. Ewan.
I think you are on the verge of winning this match.
with my last breath I'll try one more round ...

when I wrote :
"two 8ths from above and three triples-8ths beneath them ..."
I ment exactly that.
those "quavers"(my new english ... ) are not of the same length, as to your, an here I quote :
"If you have two quavers (eighth notes) beamed, with stems up, you can then add another quaver to each of them (on the same staff) as part of a chord, with stems down"(end quote),
they are at the same length.

and yes, your "Reply no. 1" was accurate.
but I am waiting to know if someone, anyone, knows a method to achieve what I want, because layering do create several other problems of displaying stems and beams.

Thanks

Ori

Re: chord with triplets

Reply #10 –
Ewan.

I read in interest your language "paradigma".

I don't know what "castigated" means, but it must be something smart.
OK, I looked it up, and it seems severe.
so , to clarify, I would add that I ment it as a joke for start.

as for me.
I speak Hebrew, and even I don't know the Hebrew names for at least half of those musical terms.

Ori

Re: chord with triplets

Reply #11 –
it is now 5/12/03 here, but 12/5/03 in the US
How about 2003.12.05?
See how everything goes from largest to smallest?
Millennium-century-decade-year.month.day.
Oh, sorry, that makes too much sense...

Re: chord with triplets

Reply #12 –
Metric dating is not yet in vogue in my neck of the woods, Gary, but some people use it and it certainly makes sense.  The nice things are that it absolutely removes ambiguity and it can be extended to include the 24hr clock, showing hour, minute, second if desired.

Re: chord with triplets

Reply #13 –
Gary Soulquist and David Palmquist !

couldn't you find any other place to make your "cleaver" remarks regarding the date ?

did you realy had barge in here ?

ori

Re: chord with triplets

Reply #14 –
couldn't you find any other place to make your "cleaver" remarks regarding the date ?
You cut me to the quick...

Re: chord with triplets

Reply #15 –
Ori, I am offended by your remark in Reply 13.

I can't speak for Mr. Soulquist, but I took the time to read your question and experiment with NWC to see if I could find a solution for you.  I have been a contributor to this forum for several years, and when I think I can help someone, I post a message.  I also participate in any discussions that catch my attention.

I could not find a solution to your problem, but I read subsequent messages on the topic to see what I could learn and how I could possibly help.

This brought me to your Reply 6 and Ewan's Reply 7.  You triggered the "dialect" discussion started by Ewan.

I participated in that discussion; I did not start it.  I don't know who Mr. Soulquist is, but his comments and mine have so far been within the context of Ewan's reply.

You made a spelling mistake in your Reply 13.  Take a look at Theodore's Reply 14.  His comment is an excellent example of a "pun," in other words, using English words in a humourous way.

You wrote that you are not a native English speaker.  Assuming you wish to communicate occasionally in English, instead of being irritaded by trivial matters that are peripheral to your topic, why not learn something about the language as it is used in various parts of the world?

Re: chord with triplets

Reply #16 –
Gentlefolk, please!  I didn't mean for discussion to get out of hand.  ori, this is a public forum, so I see that comments by other people are most welcome.  I was starting to get embarrassed to be carrying out an almost private conversation.

I agree with Gary (in Gamma) Soulquist that dates are more logical y-m-d.  This is the ISO standard, and also the format I use unless communication is obstructed.  It is NOT my national standard (Australian).  It's also nice to have diversions in the forum:  it's what happens in real-life coversations.

Learning about English - or any language - is good, as is understanding that people learning English as a second language do not have as much history with it, and will make some mistakes - as all we native speakers did (and still do) when learning it.

But - the main purpose of this forum is to provide help with Noteworthy and related matters.  So on to ori's problem.

ori: when I wrote : "two 8ths from above and three triples-8ths beneath them ..." I ment exactly that.

ori: those "quavers"(my new english ... ) are not of the same length, as to your, an here I quote :
"If you have two quavers (eighth notes) beamed, with stems up, you can then add another quaver to each of them (on the same staff) as part of a chord, with stems down"(end quote),
they are at the same length.

ori: and yes, your "Reply no. 1" was accurate.  but I am waiting to know if someone, anyone, knows a method to achieve what I want, because layering do create several other problems of displaying stems and beams.

OK.  Noteworthy works with durations.  Durations are of set lengths.  The most common ones are exactly the same length as a standard note.  These durations are:  semibreve (whole note), minim (half note), etc, down to hemidemisemiquaver (64th note).

The semibreve (whole note) duration has a special interpretation in Noteworthy.  A rest of this duration means "4 times the length of a crotchet (quarter note)" if there is anything else in the bar (measure)".  But, if it is the only thing in the bar (measure), it means "one complete bar (measure) of rest".  This is exactly the same as "real-life" notation.

Noteworthy can appear to combine durations of different length.  You can have a minim (half note) duration with a single note, stem up, in parallel with two crotchet (quarter note) durations, each with a single note, stem down.  You don't have to have a note in each shorter duration - you can have a rest.  The last, last two, last three, etc, shorter durations can also have nothing, in which case they work like rests.

Now, you can have a combination of durations that do not have the same amount of time as a long duration.  For example, the top duration is a minim (half note), followed by another minim.  The bottom durations are quaver (eighth note), followed by three crotchets (quarter notes) and another quaver.  In total, these each add up to semibreve (whole note).  This is perfectly legitimate in real-world notation.  Dvorak used these rhythms in Symphony 9. Movement 2.  But if you try to do this in Noteworthy, it won't work, because the second crotchet (quarter note) makes the bottom duration add up to a progressive total of 5 quavers (eighth notes), so the top duration will assume there is a quaver of "nothing".  The top duration will then add another four-quaver duration, for a total duration of 9 quavers.

Another difference between Noteworth and real-world notation is with beaming.  Noteworty allows beaming in the top, or the bottom, but not both.  I do not know why this is so.  Real-world notation allows beaming both top and bottom.

Now, ori, we come to your case.  In noteworthy, a triplet is a special duration.  It is treated as a single duration.  You may add a parallel note to the first triplet note, and the normal duration rules apply.  You can have two crotchet (quarter) triplets on top, and a semibreve (whole note) on the bottom.  You can have a crotchet (quarter) triplet on top, and a single quaver (eighth note) on the bottom, with the other three quaver durations as "nothing" and assumed to be rests.  But you can not have a bottom note in any other position in the triplet.  This is probably because the durations are not half of a larger one.  (You can always have a chord in the upper notes!)

So, ori, what you're asking is impossible, using parallel notes on the one staff.  You will not be able to have your second ordinary quaver (eighth), because you are not allowed to place it in the "middle" of the triplet.  Even if you could, you would not be able to beam both the upper and lower notes.  Layering really IS the only way to provide what you need - it's one of the main reasons Noteworthy now includes it.

I'm sorry if you don't like this answer, and hope you are able to come to an acceptable resolution.

Ewan

Re: chord with triplets

Reply #17 –
Wow!  855 words!

...all we native speakers...will make some mistakes...when learning [the English language].

And it is natural to make mistakes.
I applaud people who allow themselves to make mistakes, and to learn from them.
I am appalled by people who make mistakes, know it, and don't give a bleep about trying to correct or improve themselves.

(What does ISO stand for?)

Re: chord with triplets

Reply #18 –
ISO = International Standards Organisation.  These are the people who determine how long nails should be, what the country codes are at the end of e-mail addresses (except the U.S.! (mostly)), what constitutes good busines auditing practice (practise for Americans?) and thousands of other rules and regulations we can choose to adopt should we so wish.  The good thing about standards generally is that there are so many to choose from!

Sorry about the number of words - I felt it was a case where even simple concepts needed to be spelled out.

Re: chord with triplets

Reply #19 –
How long nails should be:  Not so long that they make clicking sounds while playing the piano.

Re: chord with triplets

Reply #20 –
...how long nails should be...
On the one hand, short enough not to cause any buzzing on the strings,
and on the other hand, long enough not to have to buy picks.

Re: chord with triplets

Reply #21 –
Everybody, please ...

I wasn't here for a couple of days - and I see here people found reasons to get excited about ...

since I'm new ( only a week) in this forum, I wasn't aware of the fact that the differences between English and "American" is being debated so pationately  ...

after reading some more in the forum, the FAQ, and other places, I see this is common.
so I do appologise to whome I offended.

as for NoterWorthy.
Ewan - your "Reply 16" is much too long for me to read now
(1:30 a.m.), I'll take a look at it tomorrow

ori

p.s.

I know I have spelling mistakes.
I know it even the moment I write those words (i.e. clever ...) , but as I had mentioned somewhere - I do hate my dictionary.
and besides : how meny languages you people know ?
(and I do consider all British islands originated languages to be regarded only as ONE - despite some protests)

Re: chord with triplets

Reply #22 –
Came across this yesterday; I think it is a good way of looking at English:

Source - Hope Community Church, Ontario...

Here's the final word on nutrition and health. It's a relief to know the truth after all those conflicting medical studies.

1. The Japanese eat very little fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans.

2. The Mexicans eat a lot of fat and also suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans.

3. The Japanese drink very little red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans.

4. The Italians drink excessive amounts of red wine and also suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans.

5. The Germans drink a lot of beer and eat lots of sausages and fats and suffer fewer heart attacks than the British or Americans.

CONCLUSION:
Eat and drink what you like. Speaking English is apparently what kills you.

Re: chord with triplets

Reply #23 –
Wow! what a thread.
Trying to be concise:
  • LOL! David, now I'm frightened to speak English :)
  • how long nails…: this becomes tricky when, as I do, you have to play piano, guitar and flute... On the right hand, at least.
  • Ori: According to your (sur)name, I would have thought that you are Japanese. Funny how names can sound to an un-used ear such as mine.
  • To all, English (US or UK, native or non native) -speaking people: about music symbol names, please have a look at the following pages:
    faq #79
    https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=2488
    https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=2501
    Feel free, Ori, to elaborate yours with Hebrew names!
  • Ewan: unless answering an old reply, quoting the text is not necessary, since the whole thread is usually kept. In a newsgroup where the previous post disappear, this is a good practice, but it is not needed here. Thank you, BTW, for your clear and appreciated answers.
  • When replying in this forum, take a look at the "Hints" link above the text area. You'll see how to give more strength to some text without using undesirable UPPERCASE letters.
  • About typos and mistakes: NWA kindly provides us with a simple, though efficient, spell-checker, allowing all of the english variants (but maybe not slang). When previewing your message, just have a look at the dark red section above! If there ain't any, congrats ;)
  • Some off topic answers are unavoidable. Usually they do not last very long, as most of the people here are of good will.
  • AFAIK, and as Ewan stated more than once, triplets can not be used in the same staff with the matching duplet notes (as you can do triplets with 2s (half/minim), 4th(quaver/crotchet), etc. and not only with quavers.
    This means you can not do "3 pour 2" within the same staff. Use layering for this.
    If you're annoyed by extra notes the layered staff may add, select all of them (Home, Shift+End) and activate the Hidden property. Then un-hide the some notes you want.
HTH! and sorry for such a long absence. Merry Christmas to all!
Marsu, a lambda=HNU (Happy NWC User)

Re: chord with triplets

Reply #24 –
Ewan !

for your 800 and something Reply 16 ...

a simple "no" would have sufice.

ori
 

Re: chord with triplets

Reply #25 –
Thank you, Marsu, for those suggestions.  You are right about quoting.  I guess it's a habit I'll have to unlearn.

I've tried italics and bold using the methods described in the hints.  They do not appear to work consistently for my system/network/service provider etc.  I agree that an occasional UPPER CASE word is ugly, but at least it always works.  I think having artefact punctuation like "!" and "(" marks is more confusing.  Remember all those "==20" or "o:p>" things that used to appear in days of old?

For ori , reply 24:  But the answer isn't "no"!  It's Yes, if you use layering!  Glad to see you finally accept that it can't be done on a single staff.  Must be the 800+ words that finally convinced you!  So now can we let this problem rest and all move on to better music making?

Cheers,
Ewan

Note for those who need it:  I understand artefact might be spelled as artifact in some parts of the English-speaking world.  Please substitute your vowel of preference.