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Topic: they are not enough ut key (Read 7028 times) previous topic - next topic

they are not enough ut key

i am learning the harmony but i think they are not enough
ut key . they are only 4  BUT I NEED ALL THE UT KEY ;

Re: they are not enough ut key

Reply #1 –
What?

Re: they are not enough ut key

Reply #2 –
Harmonieman,

'not enough ut key'...? Do you mean 'tenor clef'?
There are only 4 clefs: treble, bass, alto, tenor.
No need for more...

In NWC: Insert > clefs

Re: they are not enough ut key

Reply #3 –
Yes, there is such a thing as "ut" in music.

In English, we say do, re, me fa, so, la, ti (si), do. In some other language (German?) one of those tones is "ut". The original question was regarding how to insert key signatures (sharps and flats), rather than a clef symbol.

To insert a KEY SIGNATURE: After placing the clef, insert the key signature. The NWC help file tells you how. There is more than one way to do it.

Re: they are not enough ut key

Reply #4 –
Ivo,

Ut (usually in France) = Do (usually in Italy and Spain) = C (usually in anglo-saxon and german countries).

In my music books, the C key can be placed in the first four staff lines, from bottom, but usually their use is restricted to the third and fourth nowadays. But in old scores you may find C keys in the first and second lines as well.

You said "No need for more..." and I ask: for what purpose? For notating an old score preserving all the connotations and aroma from its time it would be certainly welcome that NWC allow us to place C keys in odd places even if they are now obsolete or deprecated.

Re: they are not enough ut key

Reply #5 –
Excellent clarification, Mr. Box. I stand corrected: There IS an "ut" clef, not just the key signature.

Re: they are not enough ut key

Reply #6 –
Thanks, Robert. But I need to correct you again. :-)

I'm Mr. Pajares, not Mr. Box. The relative importance of names in Spanish-speaking countries doesn't follow the rules common in Anglo-Saxon countries. The name after the first or Christian name comes from the father branch and, in a culture of patriarchal heritage as we are in, is the most important.

Re: they are not enough ut key

Reply #7 –
RPB: Alas, I should have known that! Where I live, in California, is for all practical purposes a "Spanish-speaking country." But the Spanish-speaking individuals whom I meet (as a soccer player) do not tend to come from the double-surname or hyphenated-surname social class.

The NWC Forum: Where every day brings new knowledge!

Re: they are not enough ut key

Reply #8 –
So we're talkin' 'bout C clefs, are we?  (I didn't know what "ut key" meant.)
The C clef may be positioned on any line, though three positionings are obsolete.
A C clef indicating middle C on the bottom line is referred to as the soprano clef, or descant clef (technically soprano staff, but we won't deal with that right now...)
A C clef indicating middle C on the second line is referred to as the mezzo-soprano clef.
A C clef indicating middle C on the middle line is referred to as the alto clef (we all knew that one).
A C clef indicating middle C on the fourth line is referred to as the tenor clef (we all knew that one also).
A C clef indicating middle C on the top line is referred to as the baritone clef.

When I need to use these other clefs, and I do need them, I insert them as text items.  This is a pain, because I need to do it for every line of music.  And of course, the staff needs to be muted, with a hidden/aural staff.

Re: they are not enough ut key

Reply #9 –
Dear Ah --

Couldn't you simply insert a hidden "real" clef and use the transpose facility to produce the correct pitch?

Re: they are not enough ut key

Reply #10 –
...insert a hidden "real" clef and use the transpose...
Not really.  When using the soprano clef, the interval from the note on the bottom line to the second line is a major third, while the bass, tenor, and treble all yield a minor third.  This leaves the alto clef, which yields a major third from the bottom space to the second space, but the soprano clef yields a minor third.  So, there is no clef which will suffice.  Next, try using an F sharp or a B flat in the key signature.  The result is quite odd...

Re: they are not enough ut key

Reply #11 –
I'm not sure what a C clef looks like.

What I'd do is notate the music twice.  Once in a G clef staff, and once in a C clef staff.  Some judicious cutting and pasting probably would save some effort doing this.

Mute the C clef staff, but set up the page so only the C clef shows.  The G clef would sound the playback but not be visible or printed.

Re: they are not enough ut key

Reply #12 –
After I posted I realized the problem with transposition, that while you can put a bogus "text" clef anywhere you want you still have the key signature corresponding to the hidden "real" clef.  But, in you dual staff scheme, how DO you add a key signature?  Must you place sharp/flat signs as text as well?

Thinking (but not experimenting) about it -- could you get the proper intervals by an appropriate hidden key signature?

Re: they are not enough ut key

Reply #13 –
PS -- I just recently figured out the rest of the confusion with the subject line.  Ut = C I knew from some of the Fitzwilliam book titles, but it took some time to remember that clef = key (think French, or Spanish "clave" and Latin "clavis").

Re: they are not enough ut key

Reply #14 –
What I've done in the past, well actually I've only had to do this once, but that's 'cause once was enough to discourage me from transcribing old music in NWC, but anyway what I've done is place each clef as a text element (using, incidentally, another font since I couldn't get the NWC to line up correctly) on muted staves, and having a completely separate, hidden group that contains the actual pitches.  Although, the accidentals should be pretty easy to do, you just have to have a hidden clef on the staff and use a funky key sig, such as only D is sharp, if you were writing in, say, tenor (I realize that you could use a tenor clef, but as I recall this makes the other clefs, the text ones, out of line when printing.

Check out http://www.emeraldimp.com/home/music/files.php and http://www.emeraldimp.com/home/music/nwc/bachcontra1.nwc . Note that this file uses "Musical" font, which I found online somewhere and doesn't have a copyright listed. (Which doesn't mean it isn't, but there's also no author that I saw, either, so... ?)

Not the best work, but it does suffice...

Geoff

Re: they are not enough ut key

Reply #15 –
Geoff --

Thanks for the details.  I had forgotten (never having used it) that you could define non-standard key-signatures.  I'm going to have to play with this, as I still think a one-staff solution is possible.

Re: they are not enough ut key

Reply #16 –
I've posted my solution on the new news-group.  It does work.
 

Re: they are not enough ut key

Reply #17 –
I guess the gremlins got it the first time.  I think the attachment is on the newsgroup now.  Sorry.