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Just wondering

How is it that in the orchestral scores the horns and trumpets doesn't have any key indication but use the accidentals every time?

(I'm just cheated by a score in which the trumpets are trumpets in A and I didn't get it because there was no key indication, so I assumed the usual Bb...)

Re: Just wondering

Reply #1 –
Newer music doesn't often use key signatures, whether it's in a key or not, because there are usually going to be lots of accidentals in any case. But a properly prepared score should tell you at the beginning of the first system what key the instruments on each staff are in (not just "Trumpets" but "Trumpets in Bb" or "Trumpets in A"). It should also tell you whether or not the instruments are shown at concert pitch ("c score") or transposed ("conductor's score"). Of course, people get lazy....

Re: Just wondering

Reply #3 –
Quote
The notation is generally without a key signature and sharps & flats are written in where necessary
Quote
In orchestral scoring, horns in F are traditionally scored without a key signature.

Ok, that's it. (Thank you Rick)
But it seems nobody knows exactly why...

Re: Just wondering

Reply #4 –
Quote from: Flurmy –
But it seems nobody knows exactly why...
Quote from: http://www.wmich.edu/mus-gened/mus170/OrchestraCompare.html
2. Mozart, Symphony No. 40, movement 1 (1788)
<snip>
When you look at the horn ["corno"] parts, the 1st horn is pitched in B-flat, and the second horn is pitched in G--these types of horns did not have valves to play scales like modern horns do--they could only play "root-5th-8ve-10th" hunting horn calls in the key the horn is pitched in.  The G horn could play G-D-G-B. The Bb horn could play Bb-F-Bb-D--put the two horns together and you get the primary notes of a G minor harmony/scale: G-Bb-D-F-G-Bb-(B)-D. Because these types of horns are already pitched in a particular key, composers did not feel the need to write a key signature for them.
<snip>
- IN OLDER SCORES, SOME BRASS INSTRUMENTS DID NOT HAVE VALVES, so they had to be "pitched" in a specific key (their "pitched" key is identified by their label in the score):
Before the mid-1800s, trumpet and horn players used different-sized pieces of metal tubing to "pitch" their instrument in a particular key.   In such cases, a composer will write their part without a key signature
Registered user since 1996

Re: Just wondering

Reply #5 –
Historical resons, that was obvious.
And another foolish thing in music, obvious this one too. ;-)

Quote
IN OLDER SCORES, SOME BRASS INSTRUMENTS DID NOT HAVE VALVES, so they had to be "pitched" in a specific key (their "pitched" key is identified by their label in the score):

Ok, so why to bother writing sharps & flats where necessary?
Since you don't write them if they are in key, so I would expect you DON'T write them for horns since "their "pitched" key is identified by their label in the score"

Quote
Mozart, Symphony No. 40, movement 1 (1788)
Quote
When you look at the horn ["corno"] parts, the 1st horn is pitched in B-flat, and the second horn is pitched in G--these types of horns did not have valves to play scales like modern horns do--they could only play "root-5th-8ve-10th" hunting horn calls in the key the horn is pitched in.  The G horn could play G-D-G-B. The Bb horn could play Bb-F-Bb-D--put the two horns together and you get the primary notes of a G minor harmony/scale: G-Bb-D-F-G-Bb-(B)-D.

So, how could Mozart write that in 1786?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_Concerto_No._4_%28Mozart%29

P.S. Rick, you're incredible! The living Wiki! ;-)

Re: Just wondering

Reply #6 –
Mozart could write that way because good horn players could play on the upper partials ("harmonics) of the horn, where the pitches are much closer together. Baroque trumpet parts were played the same way. Good brass players can still do this: if you want to hear an excellent example, listen to a good recording of Benjamin Britten's Serenade for Tenor, Horn and Strings. The horn player is instructed to play the opening and closing horn solos without valves.

Re: Just wondering

Reply #7 –
About horn notation ...

(Please accept my apology for this long post.)

Here are excerpts from a book touching on Horns' development and notation.

Source:  Hamilton Clarke's 'Manual of Orchestration' (1895).

He gives many examples of horn scores, and suggests ways of writing solo passages and harmonies.

Then he spices them with his personal views on just about everything.  It's a delightfully peppery book, a pleasure to read.


(Quotes from his book):

...
   The horn, or more strictly speaking, the French horn, is the most genial of all instruments, provided, of course, that your band contains two.  Four horns are generally to be found in all orchestras of any consequence.  One horn in a band suggests a condition of melancholy servitude.
...
   Its tones are full of passion, pathos, and solemnity.  The scores of Weber, Gounod, and Mendelssohn will afford numerous illustrations of the supreme qualities of this gorgeous instrument.  Beethoven uses it too recklessly in many cases, seemingly implying that practically he had very little knowledge of the instrument; while Rossini frequently treats them like buffoons.
...
   On the French horn proper, or as the Germans call it, the Wald-horn, or "horn of the woods", there are neither valves, ventils, pistons, nor cylinders.  Modern use has, however, introduced upon horns all these contrivances in one form or another.
...
   Regarding the horn as the instrument it is in its original form, and not as the mere "beast of burden" that latter usage has made it, the introduction of these artificial appliances is to be received as in some respects a very lamentable innovation.  For, whereas the real French horn, revealed in every different key, according to the "crook" used, distinct and individual beauties, the use of these valves and pistons has resulted in the almost exclusive employment of the 'horn in F', by all average horn-players.  They play music written for horns in C, D, E flat, and E, in a horn crooked in F, transposing, and trusting to guess-work as they go on.  This inflicts great injustice on composers, for if one writes a passage for the horn in C, and designs that the tone of the C horn shall be heard in it, perhaps including some of its finest veiled sounds, or closed notes; it is only just that one should enjoy the common right of hearing one's design carried out.  But the horn-player sits still, and complacently performs it on the F horn.
   It is clearly discerned that by this arrangement some of the most noble qualities of this grandest of the brass instruments are crippled, and others totally lost.  Yet, if a horn-player desires to perform a solo more fit for the flute, let him have his valves; but it is not horn-playing.
...

   (... Then he wraps it up like this:)

A lamentable perversion of the fine qualities of the horn is constantly perpetrated in modern light music, especially in waltzes, and other dances, by using it in thus in the accompaniment:

   (... Here he shows a 3/4 waltz score where the horns play the "pah-pah" in the "oom-pah-pah".)

The superb tone of the instrument is sputtered away in these jerky utterances, and the performer is sadly fatigued.  But in military music, the degradation of the horn reaches a climax, when a man has to waddle through the streets trying to steady a mouthpiece to his lips, which, when seated quietly in the orchestra, he can never control with absolute certainty.  For mere parade purposes, it is a ridiculous waste of delicate material to make use of either oboes, bassoons, or horns.  To play upon violins at the head of a regiment would not be much more absurd.
...

(End of quotes)

Moral for today:  study Gounod, not Beethoven; don't write for 'Horn in F'; beware of horns in 3/4; and make sure that horn players always sit down and don't go marching around.

Here's to the Horn!

Joe



Re: Just wondering

Reply #8 –
Quote
Mozart could write that way because good horn players could play on the upper partials ("harmonics) of the horn, where the pitches are much closer together.

Are you saying that the Mozart's horn concerts and horn quartet can be played on a "natural" horn?
Wow!

Thank you all.

Re: Just wondering

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Flurmy –
Are you saying that the Mozart's horn concerts and horn quartet can be played on a "natural" horn?
Wow!

Well, they were supposed to be able to. They were actually played with varying degrees of proficiency. Listen to Mozart's Musical Joke if you want to hear what Mozart himself thought of horn players' abilities in his day - it has an exquisite passage of wrong notes played by a pair of horns. The first time you hear it, you think they might just be playing badly. Then they play it again.
 

Re: Just wondering

Reply #10 –
Well, just this one then for those who understand Dutch:
Een neushoornvogel, een mobiele
Bezit een neus met vier ventielen.
Daar blaast hij zomaar uit zijn kop
het Hoornconcert van Mozart op.
"Ik ben," zo spreekt de neushoornvogel
"een Wolfgang Amadeushoornvogel."

(A rhino bird, a mobile one,
Has a nose with four valves
On which he plays, off the top of his head (by heart)
Mozart's Horn Concert.
"I am," so says the rhino bird,
a Wolfgang Amadosebird.)

Kind of, except for the bit that gets lost in translation.